It's past time to cut through this fucking buillshit.

[tzikeh]

I have stayed out of the OTW insanity since it began. I didn't even know how to begin to talk about it, and I didn't want to wade in while things were shaking out, and I didn't want to read things that were going to make me angry, because I knew it would just cause me impotent rage, since there was nothing I would be able to do.



I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH PEOPLE WHO DON'T LIKE/DON'T WANT TO PARTICIPATE IN THE OTW IF THEIR PHILOSOPHIES ARE IN DIRECT CONFLICT (bolded now for those who fail at reading comprehension and think I'm defending OTW, instead of what I'm actually doing, which is bitching about people who hide their identities so that they can say nasty things about OTW), but I am so done with people who are against the OTW with absolutely no facts to back up their opposition. They are the Teabagging Party when it comes to OTW: frothing at the mouth with blind hatred, but they have absolutely no fucking facts and they just believe whatever their mental, seething leaders say without bothering with critical thought, or fact-finding of their own.

In case anyone reading this thinks that I'm somehow part of the OTW "machine," let me be crystal clear. I have no part in OTW. I'm not on the board, I'm not a beta-tester, I'm not a coder, I'm not part of the PR department, I'm not anything at all when it comes to the project. But I am DONE with this fucking insane bullshit Teabagger-mentality ignorance that has spread through some sections of fandom that are just spoiling for a fight with the OTW, because they've heard from someone who knows someone who said something they didn't like.

I have fucking HAD IT.

Whiny, shitty fucks who bitch about the OTW, but create sock-puppet accounts to do it so no one who knows them will know it was *them*, can shove it up their own asses. Cowards. Bullies. Those of you who have a beef with the OTW and have created sock-puppet accounts just to write about it? Show your faces, you craven pieces of shit. How dare you hide so that nobody who knows you finds out what you think. Afraid of conflict with people you know? Coward. You want to dish it out while not having to own it. Put up or shut up.

Comments

[klia.livejournal.com]

Ah, so that's the wank that's been alluded to in a few posts on my flist.

I honestly don't understand why people hate on the OTW or AO3. Some of the criticism I've seen is just anti-Americanism (because, clearly, all Americans are horrible, horrible people), but a lot of it seems like academic sour grapes to me, including the sockpuppet you tangled with.

You know, I really didn't need another reason to stay in my fannish bubble. :P

[tzikeh.livejournal.com]

Heh. Yeah, I've been boggling at the OTW hate for years, and I just... snapped. Mostly because of the Teabaggers, frankly. People who froth at the mouth about FALSE INFORMATION make me crazy--especially since they won't change their minds even when confronted with stone-cold fact, and they just spread the poison around.

[lexin.livejournal.com]

I have to ask - I've been wondering this for a while - why are they called Teabaggers?

[lost-erizo.livejournal.com]

Because originally they called their public street meetings to collectively spew hate "tea parties" in memory of the Boston Tea Party, when a bunch of American revolutionaries in Boston dressed up as Indians, boarded a ship in Boston Harbor, and threw crates of tea over the side in protest of the Stamp Act (this was in 1773). They call themselves the "Tea Party" or teapartiers, but others have started calling them "tea-baggers" because they were either (and I don't remember at this point) throwing tea bags or swinging them over their heads at their original rallies. I also have some vague memory of some radio talk show host or FauxNews opinionator encouraging the tea bag thing. The coincidence of this being the name of a particular sexual act may explain the particular glee that some of their critics have over the term. :-)

[lexin.livejournal.com]

Thank you! I was totally puzzled.

[lydiabell.livejournal.com]

Some of the criticism I've seen is just anti-Americanism

... I am so afraid to ask.

[liviapenn.livejournal.com]

I think it goes something like: the AO3 is focusing on American/Western/English speaking fandoms, therefore they have an American bias, and they're just pretending to be open to non-American/Western/English-speaking fandoms while actually imposing their American biases and POV on everything, and since the AO3 is going to take over fandom, that means Americans are taking over fandom. So, not really so much anti-Americanism, as much as being against a (perceived) American bias on the part of the archive/mods/etc.

I don't know what the *specific* issues are that bring this criticism on. Although I have seen some people complain that they don't like the way that the archive splits up "manga/anime" and "comics/cartoons" into two different sections. Which I think is fair to criticize-- I mean, the archive doesn't split up TV, movies or books into different sections based on where they were produced or the nationality of the creator/creative team. (It would be interesting if in the future there *was* an index page of "Source by nationality" or some option to search for only, say, fanworks based on French-language tv shows/books/movies/soap operas, etc. Maybe I'll drop a note in the suggestion box. Or maybe this is something tagging will eventually cover.) But anyway, it's not like "cartoons" and "anime" are actually a different medium, or separate genres. (And then what about things like OEL manga, what about something like the Batman manga, the Powerpuff Girls anime, etc.) So there's that.

[lian-li.livejournal.com]

disclaimer: I'm chair of the OTW Translation committee and of the to-be-formed International Outreach committee. (does that make me a BNF? :DD? :DDD?)

therefore they have an American bias...

Americans have an American bias. ... so? I have a heavy German bias. *shrugs* You don't need to assume a nefarious agenda behind it -- everyone is biased. The interesting question is whether, and how, one recognizes and addresses this bias.

The only nefarious (okay, okay, uninformed) assumptions here are

a) all OTW people are US-American
b) OTW is a homogeneous group who all think alike
c) they do nothing to examine their biases.

All assumptions are (surprise) false.

a) yep, most OTW members are US-Americans. It's also almost as international as fandom itself -- we have volunteers from, oh, more than 15 different language groups (the left-hand language list (http://transformativeworks.org/) are only a couple of those engaged with translation atm, there are more in other OTW teams like coders).
b) *shrugs* now that's just common sense, right? In a group that big, there will be disagreements and discussions, even if what the world sees is the compromise that was decided on.
c) Franzeska talked about the manga & comic-related assumptions here (http://franzeska.dreamwidth.org/119636.html?format=light). And this year, there will be an International Outreach committee (http://lian.dreamwidth.org/125222.html) to explicitly address the USian bias.

I know, this seems a bit redundant, but I wanted to drop a couple of facts here for any interested passers-by (seeing as I came of from fandom_wank myself.)

[liviapenn.livejournal.com]

No, thank you for the information, that's good to know. An international outreach committee is a great idea, good on you for moving that forward. :)

[lydiabell.livejournal.com]

From my admittedly outside perspective, it seems that the people who came up with the OTW come from a specific tradition within Western media fandom, and their dealings with other traditions have been ... spotty. lian_li's comment shows that they're working on it, so that's good.

[franzeska]

Ha ha ha. All that whining about the manga/comics divide is totally me (well, ok, and other people, but the big wanky post is me). I keep feeling like a lot of the criticism I see of the OTW on the basis of the whole Western media fandom vs. speaker's fandom is about us not catering to some perceived difference between anime/manga fandoms and Western fandoms--but only in the sense that we're not catering to fans of (as someone put it in a comment on my post) 'readers of shounen, shoujo, and BL doujinshi produced after 1995'. And I want to wave my arms around and go: "What am I? Chopped liver?" (Being a fan of a bunch of other manga. Not that I'm not also in Western media fandom, so perhaps the point holds...)

But seriously, what is it specifically that you noticed? Is it just that Western media fandom BNF names were associated, or is there something in particular we're doing that's an issue? (I've certainly seen the "You're all slashers and don't like gen enough!" complaints, and those people have pointed to how we handle pairing vs. character tags in the archive, which is a very good point.)

[lydiabell.livejournal.com]

But seriously, what is it specifically that you noticed?

I went into that a bit in this subthread (linking to more than just my comment because there's some good context there).

[franzeska]

Thanks! I shall read with interest.

[brownbetty]

Well, I will say, (and, I'm an OTW volunteer, so pro-OTW, but not speaking for) that the more reasonable criticism I've heard is more like, “OTW claims to represent fandom, but really it just represents a segment of fandom: English-speaking, LJ-originating/homed, fic-/slash-writing female fans.”

To which there is a certain amount of justice, but it's a failing most volunteer agencies are prone to ("Hah, your volunteer agency is staffed mainly by middle-class people whose relative privilege gives them time and money to spare!") and I have hopes that their awareness of this issue will make a difference.

[slashpine.livejournal.com]

Agree, and thank you for making this precise point.

I was an eager OTW supporter at the very start, during FanLib and Strikethrough. But after being trashed by several of my flist for not being eager and OMG OTW IS THE ULTIMATE AWESOME *enough* -- as in, not being similarly normed around their English-speaking, LJ-originating/homed, fic-/slash-writing mostly white, mostly middle-class, mostly heternomormative, time-and-income-privileged and gee, does it seem obvious yet? highly self-centered way ... yeah, I backed WAY away from that whole group.

I get enough of that white middle-class heteronormative hegemony in RL, thankyouverymuch!

Again, not that I object at all to OTW's principles. Just the unfortunate way some of their supporters have turned it into teh new Shiny Fandom Luv Object that they then insist evarywon must luv like I do!!1! I object to being beaten over the head with anyone's personal fannish object of idolatry. Adam Lambert, OTW, hmm... no difference in effect. Substance good, rabid fangrls rabidly screaming for rabid worship... not so good.

And, I hope there's no offense taken at my words or wording! It is way late in the p.m. here, I'm not a perfect writer at the best of times, and I should probably not be responding to wank, given the touchiness of this one. But I do like your comment. Just the fact that OTW's staffed mainly by hyper-competent, over-achieving volunteers may be half the problem...

[lian-li.livejournal.com]

Just the fact that OTW's staffed mainly by hyper-competent, over-achieving volunteers may be half the problem...


Heeee, I just grinned very widely at that -- I mean, yes, you are right, it is intimidating, but the thing that keeps me sticking with the org from a people perspective is that no-one ever makes me feel as if I'm underachieving [EVEN WHEN I TOTALLY AM OKAY]

It's like, it's a volunteer org, *any* contribution is valuable -- not everyone is rich in energy/time/competence! And I'm really kind of sad that your particular circle did not seem to respect that -- I don't think one needs 100% buy-in or enthusiasm or belong to a particular tradition to be "allowed" contribute, y'know? That's pretty much the most noxious assumption for a volunteer org ever :(

(soooo you could try again, in secret? :DD? *laughs*)

[slashpine.livejournal.com]

Awww... *hugs you*

I do know some very cool ppl working in OTW, and if I ever have time and/or feel like going back to LJ, I will totally volunteer! Even though I am neither an inner-circle type nor have outrageous techno skilz. I've been a volunteer for things always, from arts organizations to science education to voter registration to an organic farm - I've usually been able to contribute some bit of skill. Right now though I'm mainly volunteering to finish a graduate degree. ;-) But I appreciate your encouragement a ton!!!

(Also, I think your translation team is one of the cooler OTW things, a way of not just being aware of diversity but actually "doing" it! *\o/*)

[klia.livejournal.com]

From a post linked to on Metafandom:

http://community.livejournal.com/yuletide_admin/81810.html?thread=2449554

FWIW, I saw similar anti-US sentiments during the post-VVC wank.

[lydiabell.livejournal.com]

Wow, Jane C. Wow. Of course, this is the person who once said that people who weren't on LiveJournal didn't get as many recs, so I can't say I'm overly surprised.

I happen to think the OTW has certain blind spots when it comes to fannish traditions other than the one that the founders belong to. That said, I don't see how she can claim it's just for US fans when they're working to translate the AO3 interface into so many languages. I mean, everybody knows that people from the US are monolingual. ;)

[tzikeh.livejournal.com]

Ahhhh, it's Jane Carnall. It all makes sense, now.

I was (and still am, though discussion traffic was much heavier in previous years) on a private discussion list about, well, fandom in general, I guess, and after a few years it became more of a collection of friends in various venn diagrams. Jane was on that list.

On September 11, 2001 (omg I sound like George W. Bush, make it stop), ON THE DAY, Jane posted that the U.S. had had it coming for some time.

Yes, you read that correctly.

Eventually, after being called on her repeated posts of anti-American sentiment (she'd certainly voiced them on the list before, but never quite so... um, yeah), she chose to leave the list.

Just so it's out there...

[tazlet.livejournal.com]

I am a user and supporter of OTW/AO3 but the truly, horrible, awful thing that I did to MsC was to post a copy of "The Gemlike Flame" by RP Lister as a comment to her IJ. I had had it Up To Here with her anti-Americanism, combined with the whining about how the Yuletide shift was threatening her perfect moral position vis-a-vis AO3. She seems to be implying that I acted on behalf of OTW. Allow me to assure her, and anyone who cares, it was purely personal.

[klia.livejournal.com]

Most of the anti-US comments I've seen have come from folks in Britain and Australia who don't seem to be non-native English speakers, so... their issues with American fans seem to stem from something other than language.

[merricatk.livejournal.com]

Why does "not want to be a part of it" = "hate"? I don't belong to the Staff Association at work, but nobody there has ever accused me of hating it.

[klia.livejournal.com]

I was talking about the person tzikeh posted about, and others I've seen over the years.

[lydiabell.livejournal.com]

Certainly not everyone who doesn't want to be part of OTW hates it (different strokes, and all that) but there is a vocal group of people who could fairly be said to hate it. These are the folks who continually spread misinformation, and who come up with wild speculations that are based on nothing more than their own assumption that the OTW people are acting in bad faith.