Nobody's GOT no claaaaaaass!

[tzikeh]

Bold those statements which are true of your life experiences. So, this was interesting, but it's definitely not as simple as bolded statement=truth.



1. Father went to college

2. Father finished college--no, because my father majored in Staying The Hell Out of Viet Nam. (His ostensible major was Psychology; he planned to become a psychologist. Those of you who know my family history can stop laughing any time now.) He went to college for five years, and when "student" was no longer a way to get out the draft, he and my mother dropped out of college and had me (Become a daddy--the next way to avoid the draft!). He then went to work for my mom's dad, and when he finally had to go down to the Army Recruitment Office, he told them he'd make and excellent soldier because he would unionize the troops, so they'd get time-and-a-half for any maneuvers after 5pm. They *loved* that. Shortly thereafter, the United States started leaving Viet Nam, and that was that.

3. Mother went to college

4. Mother finished college--see #2

5. Have any relative who is an attorney, physician, or professor

6. Were the same or higher class than your high school teachers

7. Had more than 50 books in your childhood home

8. Had more than 500 books in your childhood home Good lord, LOADS more.

9. Were read children's books by a parent

10. Had lessons of any kind before you turned 18

11. Had more than two kinds of lessons before you turned 18 Piano, violin, guitar, voice, acting, ballet, tap, gymnastics (don't laugh... ah, fuck it, go ahead. I sucked like a small child with an extra-thick malted and a twisty-straw. Uneven bars? FAIL. Vault? FAIL. Balance Beam? FALL. I did enjoy chalking up my hands, though), horseback riding, swimming (still have my "Advanced" card from the Red Cross somewhere), archery, skiing, fire-eating(!), webspinning (circus, not spider), magic, stilt-walking, trapeze (this did not go well with my fear of heights, but it was part of the circus curriculum), calligraphy, cartooning, pottery... Jesus Christ, I've never sat down and listed them before. When the fuck did I go to school and study???

12. The people in the media who dress and talk like me are portrayed positively I debated bolding this one, because it depends on your definition of "positive". The Jewish culture is often either played for stereotype, or Jewish characters are presented as entirely not Jewish by any definition of the word other than saying "I'm Jewish" at some point. I wouldn't say they're portrayed *negatively* for the most part, either--just kind of... there. The only self-professed atheist on television who I know of is Gregory House, so in that case no, not particularly a positive role model. ;) But as far as white women from upper-middle class families, absolutely.

But as far as people from New Jersey go? HAH. DOUBLE-HAH.

13. Had a credit card with your name on it before you turned 18--no, but I didn't need one.

14. Your parents (or a trust) paid for the majority of your college costs

15. Your parents (or a trust) paid for all of your college costs For this, I am truly and deeply grateful.

16. Went to a private high school--no, but the public high school in my district was one of the top schools in the state, private or public, so it wasn't necessary to be sent to a private high school to receive an excellent education. Alas, this is no longer true. Oh, Columbia, how far you have fallen.

17. Went to summer camp day camp, not overnight. Yes and no. I went to day camp from age four to age eight, and then starting at age nine I went to sleep-away camps until I was eighteen.

18. Had a private tutor before you turned 18--nope, but I didn't need one. If I had, I'm sure I would have gotten one. However, I had my own private therapist before I turned 18! (Joy.)

19. Family vacations involved staying at hotels and motels. No motels, but definitely hotels. And not always, because vacations also included visiting various relatives or (*cough*) going up to the summer house in Massachusetts.

20. Your clothing was all bought new before you turned 18.

21. Your parents bought you a car that was not a hand-me-down from them. Used, but bought for me.

22. There was original art in your house when you were a child. Lots--mostly picked up on our travels, or painted by my grandfather, who worked in oils, or my aunt, who works in watercolors. I stole some of both when I moved out.

23. You and your family lived in a single family house.

24. Your parent(s) owned their own house or apartment before you left home. Well before.

25. You had your own room as a child.

26. You had a phone in your room before you turned 18

27. Participated in an SAT/ACT prep course--No, but my favorite high school English teacher helped me out a lot during her free periods for a few days.

28. Had your own TV in your room in High School.--Nope, but this was before that became, er, "normal" for kids. None of my friends had a tv in their bedroom.

29. Owned a mutual fund or IRA in High School or College B-day. I didn't personally, but my parents had investments for me.

30. Flew anywhere on a commercial airline before you turned 16

31. Went on a cruise with your family--no, but my family wasn't interested in cruises.

32. Went on more than one cruise with your family--see #31.

33. Your parents took you to museums and art galleries as you grew up.

34. You were unaware of how much heating bills were for your family I was unaware of how much anything my family had cost. The only costs I knew of were things I bought for myself or things my mother bought for me when we went shopping.

Yes, I was massively, massively privileged growing up, if money is the sole criterion required to be counted among the privileged. But--and trust me on this one--money don't mean shit as far as happiness goes.

Comments

[dargie.livejournal.com]

Yeah, this is mostly about money, not class. I could say no to many of these, but I still consider that I was raised in a cultured home by people who could, by any standard except wealth, be considered to have had class. We weren't hurting, but a lot of what they're asking here would have gone against the grain of two people who grew up during the depression.

[liviapenn.livejournal.com]

Yes, I was massively, massively privileged growing up, if money is the sole criterion required to be counted among the privileged. But--and trust me on this one--money don't mean shit as far as happiness goes.

Yeah, but who said being privileged = being happy?

This is like a straight white guy objecting to the privilege knapsack essay by saying, "Sure, I've got all those privileges, but I was POOR. So being straight, white and male doesn't mean crap as far as happiness."

Well, right, it doesn't-- it's no guarantee of happiness. But that doesn't change the fact that this privilege exists. Similarly, yeah, maybe your upper middle class childhood wasn't happy, but one imagines it would have been even *less* fun if your family was on food stamps and didn't have a car at all, and your clothes came from Goodwill.

Although this meme kind of weirds me out a little-- I mean, I can imagine a family having none of the things on this list and *still* being reasonably middle-class-- except maybe "lived in a single family dwelling," "all new clothes" and "didn't have to work self through college."

I mean, where's "family was always able to afford school supplies," or "had to get a job in high school in order to pay for necessities," or, "you were always able to afford to go to the doctor/dentist," or "your family OWNED A CAR AT ALL," forget "you got your own car." This particular iteration of the meme is setting the bar really, really low.

[tzikeh.livejournal.com]

Yeah, but who said being privileged = being happy?

I was simply front-loading a response to a popular, generalized assumption. And I feel that you've taken the things I did say and run a bit far with them. I never said that my privileges (white, straight) don't mean crap w/r/t happiness, I said that *money* doesn't mean crap w/r/t happiness. I also never said that my childhood wouldn't have been even worse if we had been poor, I said that, even with wealth, it wasn't a good time. They're not mutually exclusive concepts.

The meme doesn't weird me out so much as fascinate me, both with what's included and what isn't. Sure, this meme doesn't have a lot of other questions it might have, which would have made further illuminations. But it doesn't, so I answered the questions it presented.

[tzikeh.livejournal.com]

:nod: I think that it's polling for the striations of economic class--more about tax brackets than about intellect and actions.

[liviapenn.livejournal.com]

I was simply front-loading a response to a popular, generalized assumption.

I didn't think that you were actually denying your privilege, but honestly, it's just this knee-jerk thing that *everybody* does. They take the privilege meme, it advises them that they're privileged, and then they make a big point of saying "so what if I have XYZ privilege, I still didn't have a perfect life. So there!"

Obviously you don't feel like the whole concept is invalid or you wouldn't even have made this journal entry, but I still feel like it's kind of beside the whole concept of privilege to say "But my privilege didn't make my life completely awesome!" Because nobody is *saying* that privilege = automatic awesome life. Maybe people are more likely to assume that about someone wealthy than about someone white or heterosexual, but I think anyone familiar with the concept of privilege is also aware of, like, intersectionality and how having one privilege doesn't mean your whole life is a free ride.

And I feel that you've taken the things I did say and run a bit far with them. I never said that my privileges (white, straight) don't mean crap w/r/t happiness, I said that *money* doesn't mean crap w/r/t happiness.

But having money (or not having to worry about money) *is* a privilege. That's the whole point of this meme. So if you're saying "money doesn't affect happiness," you *are* saying that one of your privileges didn't affect your happiness level, and I disagree with that.

Seriously, even though I don't know your personal situation, I don't think it would be outrageous to assume that you *probably* would have been unhappier in a rat-infested one-bedroom apartment, in a crappy neighborhood, with the utilities getting shut off every other month, and being hungry all the time.

I get what you're saying-- *after a certain point*, more money is not going to create more happiness. It doesn't work like that. Granted. But you have to get to that certain point first, the point where all the necessities are covered and you don't have to deal with this constant grinding fear that maybe your paycheck isn't going to stretch to the end of the month. Saying that money flat out doesn't have ANY effect on happiness is just false, because there *does* come a point where not having enough money for the necessities can make your life really a living hell to negotiate, and that's actually why I think these questions are kind of weird.

I wasn't before, and I'm still not saying that it's your fault the meme doesn't ask these questions... it just strikes me as odd that none of the things on this list really dip *below* the "not having necessities" line. This list kind of assumes the family in question has all the necessities already covered-- food, shelter, health insurance, a car, etc.-- it just takes them all for granted. Which is a weird place to start for a privilege meme, which is supposed to point out the things you *did* take for granted.

I mean, my aunt took me on a cruise with her when I graduated high school, but I certainly don't assume that EVERYONE did that, the way that (for instance) a white person unaware of her privilege might assume that EVERYBODY gets treated courteously by security guards in shopping malls regardless of race. I really doubt anybody sits around and thinks to themselves, "Yeah, my parents gave me a free ride through college, but doesn't everybody's parents do that?" I mean really.

[12-12-12.livejournal.com]

You know, until you pointed it out I really hadn't realized how few atheists there are on TV. Temperance Brennan on Bones is the only other example I can think of--and maybe Jack Shephard on Lost, though his atheism is only hinted at, never explicitly states. Huh.

[12-12-12.livejournal.com]

Explicitly stateD, not states. *facepalm*

[luminosity]

I always considered myself middle class, lower middle class, but income was the defining factor. I haven't done this meme, but it's sort of amusing when I look it over. My family was poor, but we had literally thousands of books. Books lined the walls in three rooms of my house. My family was poor, live-in-the-projects poor when I was ten, but I took music lessons from the second grade till my senior year of high school. My family was poor, but the walls that weren't covered with bookshelves were filled with original art. I vacationed in local museums and libraries. I had private lessons because my uncle was a musician (guitar); my aunt was an artist (drawing, painting, weaving, ceramics); my grandpa tied flies and wove fishnets. I had my own room after we lost our house in Camille and lived in a mobile home. It was 7x10'. My own CELL yay!

I knew how much everything cost, which I consider (now) a gross impropriety to lay on a child. After I was 17, my parents paid for nothing. Not even food or shelter.

My Momie (great-granny) always told me, and I quote, "we are poor, but we are genteel."

I had a very weird upbringing. heh. [shuts up]

[tzikeh.livejournal.com]

I have to head out to school, but I wanted to drop you a comment to let you know that I'm thinking about what you've said here, and I'll come back later to respond for real.

[tripodella.livejournal.com]

One problem I'm having with your argument is that you're using words like "privilege" and "happiness" in a way that makes it sound like you assume those words mean the same thing to everyone. Sure, money brings a sense of security. But that's not the same thing as happiness. Your definition of happiness could be totally different than tzikeh's, or mine.

[akaspeedo.livejournal.com]

I can say yes to almost all of these and we had no money to speak of.

[liviapenn.livejournal.com]

Well, "privilege" does have a specific definition in terms of the privilege meme, so it kinda should mean the same thing to everyone.

"Happiness" is harder to define, sure, but I think security is a major component of it. I don't know anyone who thrives on a diet of constant stress, insecurity and deprivation, especially children/teenagers (because this meme is asking for your experiences as a kid.)

I mean, you could have a horrible, dysfunctional wealthy childhood or an awesome loving poor childhood. Totally. But I vaguely remember someone telling you that they've actually done studies where they figure out *at what point* money stops making you happier, and it comes out to like $18,000 a year. (For a single person, I guess.) Which makes sense to me, because (adding and subtracting a little depending on lifestyle, location, etc.) that seems like just about enough money to cover all the *basics*, plus emergencies, and maybe have a little extra. And then after that it doesn't really matter if you're making $20,000 or $200,000, it doesn't actually make you any happier. But you still have to get to the point where basics are covered and you're not constantly stressing about it.

[tripodella.livejournal.com]

I mean, you could have a horrible, dysfunctional wealthy childhood or an awesome loving poor childhood. Totally.

It sounds like a dysfunctional wealthy upbringing is the childhood tzikeh had. (Correct me if I'm wrong, tzikeh!) I don't think facts and figures and studies can quantify happiness for her—and it seems like that's what you're trying to do. That's all I'm saying. What matters is HER perception.

[keiko-kirin.livejournal.com]

Oddly, I can answer "yes" to many of these, yet my family was quite poor. I guess it reflects where their priorties were. Or maybe I was a spoiled brat. Hmm, yeah. I got my own room in 1st grade when my sister wanted her own room. I don't know how it worked out this way, but my sis moved out of the room we were sharing, which was the master bedroom. So, I got my own room and it was the master bedroom! On the downside, it was absolutely the coldest bedroom in the house. Frost on the inside of the windows in the winter.

My dad was/is an English literature professor, everyone in my family liked to read, so the house was wall-to-wall books. It didn't hit me until I was well into my teens that this was uncommon. I was always surprised to visit people's homes and not see books everywhere.

[liviapenn.livejournal.com]

"Facts and figures" can't quantify happiness, no.

But I honestly think that only a person who's never had to worry about money-- I mean *seriously* worry about it-- could believe that constantly worrying about money doesn't affect a person's stress level and therefore, their overall happiness.

The privilege meme isn't asking "would you rather have a happy childhood without a lot of material goods, or a dysfunctional childhood, with your own car and tv and laptop and iPhone?"

It's saying, think about your life, which, like *everybody's* life, has areas of good and bad in it, privileges and drawbacks, depending on who you are and what your situation is-- think about it as a whole and then subtract one element, and look at how it affects the whole picture.

"Perception" doesn't really have anything to do with it. I mean, maybe I can say "my perception is that my life wouldn't have changed at ALL if I was a poverty-stricken black lesbian in a wheelchair," but that would be kind of a... well, a not very perceptive perception.

[tripodella.livejournal.com]

"Perception" doesn't really have anything to do with it. I mean, maybe I can say "my perception is that my life wouldn't have changed at ALL if I was a poverty-stricken black lesbian in a wheelchair," but that would be kind of a... well, a not very perceptive perception.

I agree that saying a person's life wouldn't be any different if they had been born a different race, class, and with a handicap would not be very perceptive. But that's not at all what tzikeh said. And that's not at all what I said.

No one is arguing lack of money doesn't cause stress or unhappiness. All tzikeh was saying is that the opposite (having money) doesn't necessarily equal happiness. She was dispelling the misconception that people with money are automatically happier than people without it. But that is a misconception you seem to stubbornly hang on to.

At any rate, I consider this discussion closed.

[liviapenn.livejournal.com]

No one is arguing lack of money doesn't cause stress or unhappiness. All tzikeh was saying is that the opposite (having money) doesn't necessarily equal happiness. She was dispelling the misconception that people with money are automatically happier than people without it. But that is a misconception you seem to stubbornly hang on to.

I can only restate what I originally said:

"I get what you're saying-- *after a certain point*, more money is not going to create more happiness. It doesn't work like that. Granted. But you have to get to that certain point first, the point where all the necessities are covered and you don't have to deal with this constant grinding fear that maybe your paycheck isn't going to stretch to the end of the month. Saying that money flat out doesn't have ANY effect on happiness is just false, because there *does* come a point where not having enough money for the necessities can make your life really a living hell to negotiate, and that's actually why I think these questions are kind of weird."

Not having enough money for food, or new clothes, or to keep the utilities turned on, or to replace your broken umbrella, or to go to the dentist when your teeth hurt, is like getting poked with a sharp stick every twenty minutes, all day long, every day. If you don't think it would make you happier to NOT get poked with a sharp stick all day long, then I suggest you try getting poked with a sharp stick all day long. Then take the stick away and see if it affects your emotional state at all. I am betting that most people would be happier without the stick. Not *happy*. I'm not guaranteeing that taking the stick away would remove all the causes of emotional distress in your life. But I'm saying it would make things BETTER than they would be WITH the stick.

At any rate, I consider this discussion closed.

I completely respect people who have nothing more to say and drop a comment to let me know the discussion is closed. I have to roll my eyes at someone who takes the opportunity to *make further arguments* and then at the end says "Oh but now I'm ending the discussion." You can do one of two things: continue to argue, or end the discussion. You can't do both. If you'd like to end the discussion, feel free to not reply to this comment, or to reply with simply "No thank you, I consider the discussion closed." If you comment again with further arguments about whether lack of money causes can affect a person's emotional state, I'll assume you're interested in continuing the discussion.

leave the internet for a few days....

[tzikeh.livejournal.com]

Livia, I thought about what you said here, and you're not wrong about poverty being enormously stressful, but I think how I set this off was a matter of phrasing, not sentiment. I implied through my wording that, since being rich doesn't bring happiness, being poor wouldn't affect happiness either, and that's not what I meant. If I'd said "Money sure as shit can't buy happiness", which was the *sentiment* behind what I wrote, it probably wouldn't have caused yours and tripod's debate. So I take responsibility for that.