So, so tired of trying to explain this.
Aug. 5th, 2003 01:41 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
tzikehIf a fan uses footage from a television show to make a vid, that vid is called a derivative work. It is not stealing. It is not theft.
If a fan uses footage from another fan's vid and puts it up as their own vid, that vid is called a plagiarized work. It's stealing, and it's not the way to make friends and influence people in your chosen community (in this case, fandom).
How are they different, you ask?
Let us pretend, for the sake of this discussion, that I have made a vid using footage from Buffy the Vampire Slayer. No one, not ONE PERSON, is looking at this vid and thinking "Goodness, tzikeh has created a television show called Buffy the Vampire Slayer! Where did she get the money to pay Sarah Michelle Gellar?" However, they may think "Goodness, look at the spectacular editing job tzikeh has done - what a clever juxtaposition of scenes - and what an appropriate song choice - and ooh, look at that color filter effect she chose to illustrate that point!"
The work I have done is recognizable because of what it is not - it is not the casting, the lighting, the direction, the costuming, or any other element of the television show. My audience knows what I have done and what I have not done instantly. They know that Buffy is not a result of my work, or my creativity. My work is on display because it is presented against the background of the show itself.
Now, if someone takes my clever juxtaposition of scenes and my editing and my color filter effect (which, if the vid is any good at all, took me no small amount of time), puts another song over it instead of the one I chose, substitutes a clip at the beginning and the end, and then makes it available for viewing as their vid - they have stolen my work. My work is now mistaken for their work. They are presenting my creativity as their own, and that's plagiarism. Stealing, for those who don't like words with more than two syllables.
To reiterate - the fact that vidders use footage from a television show to make vids does not IN ANY WAY mean that using edited footage from another vidder's work in your own vid is acceptable or even excuseable. In other words - "You steal from the show in the first place, so you don't have a leg to stand on" is not an argument that holds water. Vidders do not steal anything. IT IS NOT THE SAME THING. Deal with it.
If a fan uses footage from another fan's vid and puts it up as their own vid, that vid is called a plagiarized work. It's stealing, and it's not the way to make friends and influence people in your chosen community (in this case, fandom).
How are they different, you ask?
Let us pretend, for the sake of this discussion, that I have made a vid using footage from Buffy the Vampire Slayer. No one, not ONE PERSON, is looking at this vid and thinking "Goodness, tzikeh has created a television show called Buffy the Vampire Slayer! Where did she get the money to pay Sarah Michelle Gellar?" However, they may think "Goodness, look at the spectacular editing job tzikeh has done - what a clever juxtaposition of scenes - and what an appropriate song choice - and ooh, look at that color filter effect she chose to illustrate that point!"
The work I have done is recognizable because of what it is not - it is not the casting, the lighting, the direction, the costuming, or any other element of the television show. My audience knows what I have done and what I have not done instantly. They know that Buffy is not a result of my work, or my creativity. My work is on display because it is presented against the background of the show itself.
Now, if someone takes my clever juxtaposition of scenes and my editing and my color filter effect (which, if the vid is any good at all, took me no small amount of time), puts another song over it instead of the one I chose, substitutes a clip at the beginning and the end, and then makes it available for viewing as their vid - they have stolen my work. My work is now mistaken for their work. They are presenting my creativity as their own, and that's plagiarism. Stealing, for those who don't like words with more than two syllables.
To reiterate - the fact that vidders use footage from a television show to make vids does not IN ANY WAY mean that using edited footage from another vidder's work in your own vid is acceptable or even excuseable. In other words - "You steal from the show in the first place, so you don't have a leg to stand on" is not an argument that holds water. Vidders do not steal anything. IT IS NOT THE SAME THING. Deal with it.
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Date: 2003-08-05 11:59 am (UTC)no subject
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Date: 2003-08-05 12:11 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-08-05 12:12 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-08-05 12:38 pm (UTC)Now if only people would listen...
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Date: 2003-08-05 12:53 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-08-05 01:01 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-08-05 01:11 pm (UTC)I'm not a vidder, but I like watching them and hate to think one person's hard work is being stolen by others -- not just because it's wrong but because the first person could end up not making videos anymore just to escape from being copied. And then we all lose.
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Date: 2003-08-05 01:16 pm (UTC)I'm learning this as I laboriously clip and shuffle and try to get my first vid into a working format without losing my mind.
I'm taking liberties Lucas never envisioned with his Cantina scene but they are *my* liberties. I'd be fairly peeved if someone took the scene (a major eye-fuck and proposition scene as I have cut and rearranged it) and used it themselves without asking.
Too many hours, too much swearing and too many saves have gone into that 15 seconds.
BTW: is it considered tacky to ask someone for a raw capture? Not to impinge on their editing work, but just an "I don't have that ep of Brimstone on tape, could you cap me this 5 second shot?" along with an offer to send icons or clips of your own? And an acknowledgement in the credits.
(I may find myself in this position soon, since I upgraded to DVD)
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Date: 2003-08-05 01:18 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-08-05 01:27 pm (UTC)RUL
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Date: 2003-08-05 01:40 pm (UTC)Licked at last. Life is good.
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Date: 2003-08-05 01:43 pm (UTC)Well said.
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Date: 2003-08-05 01:58 pm (UTC)Why is the issue suddenly magically difficult for people to grasp when it's transported into fandom?
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Date: 2003-08-05 02:04 pm (UTC)no subject
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Date: 2003-08-05 02:39 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-08-05 02:42 pm (UTC)And this is the same argument that needs to be made when folks try to insist that they can copy fanfic and just search-replace the names (as if that wouldn't obviously make a crappy story anyway).
Thank you!
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Date: 2003-08-05 03:45 pm (UTC)what you said.
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Date: 2003-08-05 04:31 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-08-05 05:17 pm (UTC)Again, I say FEH.
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Date: 2003-08-06 10:33 pm (UTC)I agree with your points; it is not the same thing. However.
I think the similarity you're missing is the ultimate goal of each endeavor: the goal of BtVS is to convince advertisers to pay them money. To do that, the show has to be entertaining, well done, etc.
But the goal of a songvid is ... well, that depends. Generally, to entertain. So if you borrow someone else' work to produce that songvid, you haven't taken any funds from them, nor have you increased your funds.
Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery. I think it's a valid artform as well. IMHO!
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Date: 2003-08-07 06:07 am (UTC)I disagree. The goal of the *network which chooses to air the show* is to convince advertisers to give them money. The goal of the show itself is to entertain, to engage an audience member. The measure of success for a network is advertising dollars; the measure of success for a show is critical acclaim for it's artistry. There is commerce and art combined in professional entertainment, but in vidding, there is only art - so the only thing that matters is critical acclaim. That is the vidder's currency. So -
if you borrow someone else' work to produce that songvid, you haven't taken any funds from them, nor have you increased your funds.
Not true because for a vidder, their reputation as a creative and original and entertaining vidder is the only thing that belongs to them - and if someone garners praises for 'their work' when, in fact, it is someone else's work, that's stealing.
Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery. I think it's a valid artform as well. IMHO!
So, if you wrote a wonderful piece of fiction in a fandom, and someone in a wholly different fandom took it, replaced the character names with names from characters in their fandom, posted it as their own creation, and got loads of praise for their writing skills, you would find that valid? If that's true, I think you're quite rare.
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Date: 2003-08-07 06:18 am (UTC)See, here would be the problem I'd have: there's imitation, and there's taking the hard work someone has done and passing it off as your own. Those to me are not the same thing. Let's say I spend hours and hours doing a web graphic set. If this inspires someone else to make a set that runs along the same idea, no problem. If they take my set and simply alter the colors and put it up on the web as their own creation? Gonna be pissed.
Running off
Date: 2003-08-07 09:42 am (UTC)I think what I'm talking about is a somewhat larger issue about fannish culture.
My disagreement springs, I suppose, from a fundamental difference between fans. I know there are fans who believe that their work belongs to them and who value their reputation as currency. Many fans write fic for the feedback, want to publish in presigious zines and show vids in prestigious shows, put award banners on their websites, and generally strive to use their BNF powers for good.
Then there's me (and I know there are at least a few others like me). I am the Ayn Rand of fandom, and my one and only customer in this whole thing is me. I create things only because no one else is writing/doing what I want to read/see. If someone else uses it or builds on it after that-- great.
If someone took one of my stories and put their name on it, I would consider it a compliment. If someone stole clip combinations, or original characters, or story ideas, or anything fannish of mine and used it for other fannish purposes, I would consider that a good thing because more fandom is better.
I don't really care who does it, why they do it, how they do it, it comes down to that they do it. More for me, you see.
Now -- I do understand that others (perhaps the vast majority of fans) don't agree with this, so of course I don't do it. I also realize that perhaps some of these very talented people wouldn't create the things they do if they didn't get the credit for them. So I try to give credit and send feedback early and often.
But me -- I don't want credit. I think awards are universally biased and mean little. I contribute and create to make the world of fandom a richer place, and I think my actions come back to me tenfold. So yes, perhaps rare.
(I am also like this in RL, by the by. I work for the good of all mankind, etc, etc, refuse to be nominated for awards, always give credit to others when I can. Yes, my boss thinks I'm weird, too.)
Huzzah!
Date: 2003-08-07 11:25 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-03-11 12:13 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-03-11 06:12 pm (UTC)Come to vividcon and commiserate with like-minded people! And dance!
Not to seem dull but...
Date: 2004-05-27 01:52 pm (UTC)Re: Not to seem dull but...
Date: 2005-08-30 04:01 pm (UTC)Re: Not to seem dull but...
Date: 2005-08-30 04:58 pm (UTC)Wanna bet?
For all you know, the vidder has spent hours adjusting the timing on the clip, tweaking the colouring, adjusting the saturation or brightness, and making all sorts of changes which aren't necessarily obvious to the naked eye unless you're very familiar with the original clip.
That's why so many cases of clip theft get spotted very easily.
So - leaving aside the ethical issues, because everyone else has covered those - the only safe option is to go get the clip you want direct from the source, and then do whatever you want to do with it.
would that be theft?
Uh, yes. Any time you take a clip out of someone else's vid, not from the source material, that's theft.
If you're having trouble finding source, or don't know how to rip DVDs, or whatever, ask around - people are generally more than willing to help you learn. Stealing from other people's vids is not only way out of line, it's also unecessary.
no subject
Date: 2005-09-06 07:45 am (UTC)So why, in the name of st00p1d ppl everywhere, why can't the morons Get.It?
*stabs them* *applauds you*
Fan Videos!
Date: 2005-09-11 07:07 pm (UTC)These are the MOST offensive sites and email adresses that try to use intimidation to control what another shows on thier website or how another makes a video:
Charmax of Bronze-Ambition.net
fan_arter@hotmail.co.uk
zoharsha@gmail.com
astartexx@aol.com
bloodypoetry@gmail.com
Who made these stupid unenforceable rules anyway?
These rules are meaningless, and I suggest if you do not want others to use your material don't post it on the damn internet, otherwise Grow Up!
Re: Fan Videos!
Date: 2005-11-06 07:29 am (UTC)Of course its not enforceable; that's why people have to resort to mass emails to try to reduce this obnoxious trend. If you don't want to be harassed, you could try adhering to the simple request of vidders who clearly state that they don't want you to re-use their clips. Quit whining and get a life.
Re: Fan Videos!
Date: 2006-01-05 09:44 am (UTC)