For our friends in foreign lands

[tzikeh]

"Americans."

We do hear this a lot from people in other countries. "Americans" think this, "Americans" do that. But - there are 300 million people in America. Three hundred million. And they are more diverse than in any other nation, anywhere, ever.

European populations, for comparison, totalling 300 million:

France: 60 million
England: 60 million
Germany: 80 million
Spain: 40 million
Italy: 60 million

Just a gentle reminder - before you are next tempted to say "Americans this" or "Americans that" - remember that number. And remember this one: 55 million. That's how many Americans voted for Kerry and/or against Bush. More than all the people in Spain. Close to all the people in France, or England, or Italy. ALL of them. 55,128,439, actually. And not all the votes are counted yet.

Please don't discount over fifty-five million people because their country has more voters who went the other way. And please - think before you say "Americans".

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Comments

[par-avion.livejournal.com]

Inconceiveable!

Love you. Love your Princess Bride quote.

[ide-cyan.livejournal.com]

And yet Americans keep forgetting that America comprises more than one country.

[tzikeh.livejournal.com]

Americans keep forgetting

All of them? Really?

The language has come to allow the international use of "Americans" to serve as shorthand for "citizens of the United States", yes - but that doesn't negate the fact that many of us do know the various countries which make up North, Central, Latin and South America and their overlap. Many don't, but many do.

*points to original post*

[ide-cyan.livejournal.com]

So you'll allow one use of the generic, but not the other. Synecdoche only works one way anymore, does it?

[ladysorka]

The things is, unfortunately there is no other term for the citizens of the United States of America.

Someone can be called both French and European, both Chinese and Asian, Egyptian and African. But if you are from the United States of America, you are both American and... American.

It is, unfortunately, a problem with the language.

Not the people.

[tzikeh.livejournal.com]

Actually, one use is synecdoche, one is metonymy. And no, it doesn't only work one way, but you're making an argument which is tangential to the one I'm making, and seem to be making it just for spite. So, thanks for dropping in to rub salt in my wounds for no other practical purpose I can see besides making people who feel terrible today feel even worse over a technicality. You're welcome to continue, of course, but I will drop out of this part of the conversation. Take it as a victory if you like.

[jacquez.livejournal.com]

Nyet.

"The Americas" comprise more than one country.

So do "South America", "Central America", and "North America".

"America", by its lonesome like that, always means the United States of America, just as "Americans" always means "people from the United States of America".

It is hardly our fault that the language is set up as it is; being a pedant about it, particularly in this instance, makes you seem like something of a jerk.

[halimede.livejournal.com]

It is hardly our fault that the language is set up as it is; being a pedant about it, particularly in this instance, makes you seem like something of a jerk.

Actually, I've been using US & US citizens mostly. Works fine.

And FWIW, I've spent quite a bit of time posting and commenting reminding my disheartened friends in the US that *no*, it's not a unanymous thing by far. So for what it's worth, there's at least one friend in a foreign (to you) land who cares about that. Important to remember for everyone, I think.

[simplelyric.livejournal.com]

Unless the term is already part of a chosen name (like, say, America Coming Together (http://www.americacomingtogether.com/)), I try to avoid using "American" to describe myself, other people, car companies, or anything else solely from my country. As you said, U.S. citizen does the job. A friend from Australia also suggested the term "Ussies" -- with the understanding that I'd have to pronounce it aloud a certain way so as not to have it sound like "Aussies" *g* -- and I've even adopted that in some cases.

I've had multiple discussions on this subject with people from the U.S. and from elsewhere in the world, and many from the latter group (including Canadians) said they couldn't care less if U.S. folks call themselves "Americans." But some do mind, and it's not worth it to me to offend people or make it seem like I think my country is more important or exclusive than it is.

[girliejones.livejournal.com]

"America", by its lonesome like that, always means the United States of America,

No it doesn't. Only to Americans.

[kassrachel.livejournal.com]

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Brava.

[klia.livejournal.com]

And it's even worse coming from those abroad, who already think "Americans" are idiots.

The thing is, deep down, I wonder how many voters were influenced *against* Kerry by foreign interference, namely those Brits who wrote letters to undecided voters (excuse me, like *they* have any room to preach?), and that stupid Bin Laden videotape. I can imagine people voting *for* Bush just to make a point.

[imation23.livejournal.com]

I can imagine people voting *for* Bush just to make a point.

Isn't that even more idiotic? I agree with tzikeh's point completely, but if people really did vote for Bush just to 'make a point', that's just...a mind-blowingly stupid thing to do.

[klia.livejournal.com]

I don't know, is it? If you were undecided, and people from other countries tried to strong-arm you one way, wouldn't your natural inclination be to resist? This was such an emotional election for everyone, and I'm sure there were a lot of people who didn't know what to think, with both sides basically saying the other candidate was the anti-Christ.

[imation23.livejournal.com]

Natural inclination? Maybe. Does that make it less stupid? Um, no.

[klia.livejournal.com]

Hey, whatever. I consider myself a strong person, but I've known a lot of people over the years who just... aren't. There are a hell of a lot more followers than leaders.

[lumenara.livejournal.com]

As an American, thanks for that.

[the-shoshanna.livejournal.com]

Thank you.

[gypsy86.livejournal.com]

While it's true that "America" when paired with "North" or "South" contains multiple countries, the citizens of those other countries do not generally refer to themselves as "Americans" but rather "Canadians," "Mexicans," "Brazilians," etc.

Got here from a link in another lj. Just wanted to say *applause* and amen.

[vampirefan.livejournal.com]

you know my dad used to argue with me about the use of "america" to refer to the usa... and also of using "united states" to refer to the usa ('cause mexico's full name is "estados unidos mexicanos" - translated as "the united states of mexico") and i can understand that some may think that "america" is too much of a generalization.

...but the truth of the matter is that when someone says "america" or "americans", no one thinks that they are talking about mexicans, canadians, brazilians, chileans or whatever peoples of the countries on the north, central and south american continents.

i lived in mexico, and know that usa people were generally referred to as "americanos", "gringos" and "estaunidenses" - and the country as "estados unidos" mexicans were, well... "mexicanos".

the only thing i can ask is if "american" is not the proper term, then what should citizens of the united states be called (and no i'm not encouraging swearing!)

united states of americans?
usaians?
unitedstatesians? (kind of a translation of "estaunidenses")

i really would like to know if there is a real name being used to refer to people from the united states out there that is the reason why people are so hung up on why we are called "americans"...

[vampirefan.livejournal.com]

woops! forgot to mention... great post :) and i can see what you mean... but i have to agree that we as americans do generalize about other countries as much as they generalize about us and you do so also in your post (ie implied: italians, french, english, etc) i find myself in the same boat as those that lump americans into one pile. i have no clue about the internal political divisions of the countries you mention so i wouldn't know what is going on and whether or not the majority or even half of those countries are happy with their current governments. just my 2 cents...

[tzikeh.livejournal.com]

Except that I do follow what goes on in other countries. I know that when 10% of the French voted for a close-minded bigot and hundreds of thousands of them took to the streets to protest even the chance of that person taking office. I know the Brits are far angrier with Tony Blair for committing England to the war on Iraq, by percentage, than Americans are with George Bush. I know that Italy is battling with itself over the separation of Church and State.

I in no way implied that all Italians think the same things, or all English, or all French. My goal was to communicate the enormity of the population of this country, so that the parallel could be drawn. If 60 million people (all of France) have serious differences, then a country with five times that many people certainly don't all think alike.

[vampirefan.livejournal.com]

I in no way implied that all Italians think the same things, or all English, or all French.

i didn't think you were actually singling out the particular countries you named as being guilty of generalizing, i was only pointing out that you generalized by naming the countris as a whole as examples. (does that make sense? and now that i re-read the origianl post i realize that was me being nitpicky and i really have no clue how you could have written your example differently to apease my nitpicky mind)

Except that I do follow what goes on in other countries. I know that when 10% of the French voted for a close-minded bigot and hundreds of thousands of them took to the streets to protest even the chance of that person taking office. I know the Brits are far angrier with Tony Blair for committing England to the war on Iraq, by percentage, than Americans are with George Bush. I know that Italy is battling with itself over the separation of Church and State.

(snip)My goal was to communicate the enormity of the population of this country, so that the parallel could be drawn. If 60 million people (all of France) have serious differences, then a country with five times that many people certainly don't all think alike.

thank you for the clarification. this make more sense now regarding what you were trying to get across.

thanks! :)

[girliejones.livejournal.com]

Thanks so much for this post. It actually made me cry - the first time since I heard Kerry had conceded. It was really touching to point out that over 55 million people showed up to say no more years and still it wasn't enough. That's a hell of a lot of people who don't agree with the state of things.

Its important to remember.

[complicittheory.livejournal.com]

People are people. I love my friends regardless of their country of origin.

America is an ideology. And a democracy. You cannot be an American and not be complicit in what America IS and what it does. That goes for each of us in our own country. How can it be otherwise?

[kelliem.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure I am reading your post right, but it sounds like what you are saying is that even though I voted against Bush, I donated money to defeat him, and I worked in my local area toward his defeat, I am still responsible for his being elected? Is that correct?

[complicittheory.livejournal.com]

Yes, you participated in the system that got him elected. That's how a democracy works. But it goes further. As a canadian who did not vote, but actively encouraged all his friends to vote for Kerry, who cheered for kerry, and who had a Kerry bumper sticker on his computer, I'm still complicit as well, because I'm part of the North American culture.

Neither of us are guitly of the insane evil of people who actually vote for him, or the sheer stupidity of people who didn't vote, but we are part of the process and partially responsible for the outcome.

That's what I'm 'saying'. What you say is no doubt different.

[kelliem.livejournal.com]

Hm, no, I don't necessarily disagree, I just probably would have used a different word, possibly some variaion of 'participate' or 'cooperate.' Complicit has connotations of criminality.

Main Entry: com·plic·i·ty
Pronunciation: k&m-'pli-s(&-)tE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -ties
1 : association or participation in or as if in a wrongful act
2 : an instance of complicity
(from: http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=complicity)

[nymphaea1.livejournal.com]

Thanks for that.

And on the "America to refer to USA issue", I don't quite get how people can say only citizens of the USA think and or say that. I just took a random look at papers from Britain and Canada and found that they refer to us as "America" and "Americans" also. So if it is a crime, well, we're not alone. And I'd like to know what we are suppose to use that's not incredibly awkward. Grrr.

I came here on a rec from another lj, btw.

[elenabtvs.livejournal.com]

While I do agree with the point that you are making (after all, close to 50% of people who voted in your election will have to lie in a bed they did not make)...

And they are more diverse than in any other nation, anywhere, ever.

Really? I'm not saying that's not the case, but I'd like to see the stats that back that up.

[starkittyn.livejournal.com]

Okay, this is going to take a little 'splainin'.

I saw a reference to yuletide on wayfairer's journal so then I went there to check it out and then I saw your yule log icon and then I came to your journal and here I am.

*cough*

This is a fabulous post. I love this. Plus, the "Princess Bride" reference. *g*

Ahem, and might I know who made that yule log icon? Cause it rocks. A lot.

[tzikeh.livejournal.com]

LOL - I made the Yule Log icon - there's free footage of the Yule Log online, somewhere.... And I'm glad you like the post.

[starkittyn.livejournal.com]

Can I use the yule log icon too? *makes of the big eyes hopefully* With credit of course.

[tzikeh.livejournal.com]

I made it specifically for the yuletide community. Are you a member?

[starkittyn.livejournal.com]

Unfortunately no. I found out about it too late. That's okay though. Thank you anyway!