I am ENTITLED to hear your thoughts on this.

[tzikeh]

taraljc and I have decided that what the hell, we'll tilt at the windmills a bit. We're putting together a Centralized Fandom Primer website. Once it's up, we hope that people who run lists or have archives or build faqs or run cons or what-have-you will choose to point a link our way somewhere in their cyber-existence. Obviously, nobody *has* to link to it, and we're sure to get our fair share of "who are you to tell us blah blah!?" But between T and me, we have closing in on 50 years in fandom (geez), so we think we have a decent handle on where it's come from and where it's got to. BUT WE WANT EVERYONE'S HELP.

If you would be so kind, drop a comment here and let me know: What kind of things do you wish new folks had a handle on before they arrived in fandom? What do you wish someone had told you when you first got involved? If you could announce one thing to every fannish mailing list in existence, what would it be?

We don't want to preach. We don't want to direct. (Well, actually, I do want to direct, but that's a whole other thing.) All we want to do is lay it out in plain words - "Here's where fandom came from, here's how things generally are in fandom online; here's how we treat one another. You can choose to ignore this - that's your right. But it's easier to be part of a community when you live by the community's generally agreed-upon guidelines. Some of this is common sense. Some of it is common courtesy. You'd think it doesn't need to be said, but - well, fandom's a queer duck, and online life is a queer duck, and you put those two together and sometimes people do things they'd never do if they'd actually sat and thought about it for a minute."

Let me know, guys - and ask your friends.

ETA: There are some great ideas being posted here and I just wanted folks to know that we are reading them all - please don't think if I haven't responded directly that I didn't read / didn't care what you said. I just don't want to pad out the replies with "Thanks!" fifty times.

Comments

[loreleif.livejournal.com]

Someone recently posted this (http://www.livejournal.com/users/celli/149516.html), and I think it's a good beginning.

Along with the whole "don't try to piss off people" thing.

[mz-bstone.livejournal.com]

How about a fandom lasts longer, goes farther and has more fun if we accept that we're all different, and go with the Respect thing even if we don't feel the Lurve thing?

B

[tzikeh.livejournal.com]

Wow, that's a fabuloust start. Thanks for pointing it out!

Off to comment...

Fandom isn't just the Internet

[cjandre.livejournal.com]

The Internet is a great tool - and I am a total addict - but it would be great to see a site that let's newbies know there are cons, panels, meetings, book clubs, and REAL LIVE 3D PEOPLE out there and they are just as much fandom as a mailing list and an LJ.

Re: Fandom isn't just the Internet

[tzikeh.livejournal.com]

No worries, m'dear - Tara and I started in fandom with cons and zines, way before home computers were common, let alone the Internet. You're covered. ;)

[tzikeh.livejournal.com]

Ah, you mean common courtesy? ;) You bet.

Re: Fandom isn't just the Internet

[taraljc.livejournal.com]

I've been media con going fen since 1988 or so, and I'm a big fan of showing how fannish life existed before and even now independent from the Internet :) But I've almost been online since 1992, and dig pointing out how fandom has evolved online too. So have no fear! All quarters and aspects will be covered :)

[ajodasso.livejournal.com]

A Fannish Terms FAQ. Let me tell you, when I first found myself neck-deep in online fandom about three years ago, I had no clue what some of the acronyms that I saw flying around meant. BNF, OTP, OT3, you name it--I had no idea until people explained it to me along the way, until I asked. Knowing the vocabulary is a vital part of understanding the fannish language flowing around you.

[therealjae.livejournal.com]

This is such a great idea! I'll give it some thought.

-J

[annavtree.livejournal.com]

I think that perspective is an important thing to remember. Everyone comes into fandom with different experiences, and since we can't see them in a physical way I think there is a tendency to remember that. People may be offended by things you're not offended by or not offended by things that offend you.

Try to take as much as you give. If you don't have the resources or the emotional energy, you don't have to be a BNF running a mailing list or hosting an archive on your domain. But we all have an e-m ail address and/or a livejournal account, use that account to send feedback and acknowledgement to other people. Sometimes it seems like we are all shouting into a void because we can't see if anyone is really there. If you have a response to someone, acknowledge it and them by replying to them. Politely. With correct punctuation and spelling..

[jmtorres.livejournal.com]

A lot of new fans are young, and you sometimes see them outing themselves as teenagers on adult lists and getting kicked off--personally, I lied my ass off for two years and I knew better than to out myself because I'd read the FAQ's for the lists I joined.

Hmm. Can you actually encourage lying one's ass off until one is 18, or do you have to be subtle about it and risk them not getting it?

Great idea!

[bientot.livejournal.com]

Perhaps a heads-up right up front about the fact that what we're doing is not, strictly speaking, legal, and consequently we need to be courteous and thoughtful about activities which might expose fellow fen to legal repercussions? Followed closely by the recognition that fannish activities are creative and deserve respect as such, in spite of the fact that they derive from pre-existing characters/situations/etc.

An annotated bibliography would be great, too, starting with Henry Jenkins's wonderful Textual Poachers (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0415905729/qid=1050770003/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/103-2818856-1131838?v=glance&s=books&n=507846).

Yay! - and can I take a moment to squee at your icon?

[cjandre.livejournal.com]

It's BILL!

My god is still remember taht song

Anyway - GREAT to hear that you two have feet firmly planted in both sides of the fandom camp.

I started in literary SF fandom and cons back in 1982-1987 and then had a long break while I lived overseas. Came back and discovered media fandom and the Internet. Now I enjoy fandom in both worlds. Looking forward to seeing your site!

CJ

[luminosity]

I've been thinking about this and agree that it's a great idea. Stream-of-consciousness thinking here:

You can tell the truth to someone in a social situation without being rude. There's a lot of power in that. There's no power in shrugging off common courtesy, even if it does make you feel good for ten seconds.

Know in your heart that (online) fandom is an incestuous society, and who you privately trash today could be your friend tomorrow, and vice versa. So... Don't. Or Do, but know that.

Everyone has a favorite dead pony. Respect that right even if you don't respect the horseflesh.

I wish someone had told me that being involved in fandom was going to be an all-encompassing part of my social life. I can't look at anything without somehow relating it to something that I'm involved in or know about or is related to fandom. Rose-colored glasses? I have fandom-colored glasses.

Subparagraph B: Internet fandom is not the be-all, end-all of fandom. It's not even the majority. If there was ever a place were there is a Silent Majority, it's in fandom, and what we think or say or write is not everything. And slash fandom? It's a fringe of that minority part of fandom. It just *feels* all encompassing. (note: Slash is MUCH MORE out in the open than it was a mere 6 years ago when I became involved in online fandom, but that doesn't mean that it's OUT THERE.)

For (insert deity of choice)'s sake, keep an intact sense of humor. It's necessary in order to live a healthy fannish life.

[bethbethbeth.livejournal.com]

Regarding Adrienne's post, maybe some links to various fannish/net sites which have already put together some of this information would be useful:

This, for example - http://www.angelfire.com/scifi/dreamweaver/encyclomn/encycappend01.html - gives a decent start on acronyms and emoticons

Or this -
http://fanac.org/Fannish_Reference_Works/Fan_terms/index.html? - which is a fan-specific terminology list (although SF/F fandom, not our corner of media fandom exactly)

Similarly, both versions of the Fancyclopedia can be found here: http://fanac.org/Fannish_Reference_Works/Fancyclopedia/index.html

It's true that media fandom is sometimes seen as a lower life form by old-style SF/F fen (as I've discovered by participating in both fannish arenas), but inasmuch as we (i.e., media fen) consider it important that newcomers learn the mores and courtesies of what *we* think fandom is (and should be), I think it's also useful if we have at least some historical perspective of what fandom was (and is) before we recreated it. If we're not willing to do that, we shouldn't be surprised when newcomers to our branch of fandom ignore our norms.

And maybe a message board (or the equivalent) where people could post newbie-type questions to be answered (in a threaded way) without fear of feeling like an idiot. To ensure this, there would have to be provisions for people to post their questions anonymously (although in that case I'd suggest that a decent number of people should have the ability - and passwords - to delete trollish questions so no one person feels as if she has the burden of being the Voice of Fandom).

With a message board there might be more than one answer to any given question (who am I kidding...there could be dozens *g*), but there would at least be the possibility of coming up with some sort of fannish consensus to *some* issues.

-Beth

[marginalia.livejournal.com]

i'll second that one. i'm pretty new to fandom, and i'm still coming across terms - not just acronyms, those i manage to puzzle out fairly quickly - and going "huh?"

god bless google.

[tzikeh.livejournal.com]

Oh, yes, fanac.org and the like are already in our short list of Places to Start.

I don't know that we're ready for a message board yet - though the idea is an intruiging one. Mostly we just want to have a repository that anyone in fandom can point to for the *general* rules/assumptions of fandom.

Re: Yay! - and can I take a moment to squee at your icon?

[tzikeh.livejournal.com]

I love Bill. ;)

And yes, I started going to SF lit cons in the early 80s as well, and have long since entrenched myself in online fandom, so we do have a broad perspective here.

[liviapenn.livejournal.com]

Obviously, nobody *has* to link to it, and we're sure to get our fair share of "who are you to tell us blah blah!?"

You might be able to side-step this a little if you present it as more of a *descriptive* primer-- ie, these are the general codes of behavior that most fen consider to be important, not just because this behavior is "tacky" or "rude" or whatever, but because these rules have evolved over the years so *people don't get hurt*, individually and collectively as a fandom. Not "You shall not direct-link screencaps because it's rude," but "We don't direct link screencaps because it costs the hoster *actual money* and might cause her site to go down and not be available to *anyone*." Not "You shall not give vids to Joss because it's thoughtless," but "Historically, we don't think it's wise to give vids to Joss because of X, Y and Z who've been ToSed in similar situations, thus causing their vids/archives/zines to not be available to *anyone*." Etc. *shrug* Just a suggestion.

[tzikeh.livejournal.com]

Not "You shall not direct-link screencaps because it's rude," but "We don't direct link screencaps because it costs the hoster *actual money* and might cause her site to go down and not be available to *anyone*."

Absolutely. We're going to be very careful not to make anything a command or imperative. If we present ourselves as asshats, no one will care to read it. :)

[gwyn-r.livejournal.com]

I applaud the effort, but the cynic in me has little hope. Well, you know me (and can I just say about the Firefly vid guy -- why is it always a guy? Why? And why does the guy argument always involve insulting women for being women and I Am Right You Are Always Wrong? Is it something about being a male vidder? Are they vidding because they had penis size issues? What???).

Anyways, sorry, getting a little spazzy there, too many kerffuffles lately, I'm on overload. I realize that my old rant about the taking of my stories and archiving them on personal archives without my permission is a little... oh, disjointed and ranty, and somewhat old, but if you want to take some of that, feel free. That's the one I wrote and got input from my fellow bitkahs on after a couple people had stolen some stories -- and then complained that links and recs take up more bandwidth than archiving. I think you could probably do a better job of explaining the bandwidth non-issue, but if you want to take anything, be my guest (that's another part of the rant -- that people are guests in my corn, and don't have the right to just take without asking because I invited them in). I'm too rushed right now to figure out how to do the link in text thing, but it's at www.drizzle.com/~gwyneth/morestuff/cornguests.html, I think. If not just go to the TMI page, linked from the bottom of the home page, and go over to the Guests in my Corn rant.

Keep up the good work, kiddos.

[bethbethbeth.livejournal.com]

I don't know that we're ready for a message board yet - though the idea is an intruiging one. Mostly we just want to have a repository that anyone in fandom can point to for the *general* rules/assumptions of fandom.

::nodding::

I get that...and it's true that a message board would entail a great deal of work - perhaps more than anyone wants to do at the moment (although, um, don't you OWE IT to fandom? *g*). My only thought was that regardless of how 'general' any of us think we're being, a certain percentage of fandom is going to think we're wrong vis a vis our basic assumptions.

I'm sure this isn't news to you (or to anyone), of course; it's just something to continue to bear in mind as the project gets off the ground. Perhaps one solution is to provide alternative thoughts in some areas. For example, if this list were going to include something about the posting of fanfiction (which I'm using as an example because I'm guessing that this *isn't* the sort of thing you'll be focusing on), *my* corner of the fannish world would generally say "Don't post WIPs, get a beta, give canon/characterization more than a cursory thought" etc. However, the Harry Potter world would be saying "No WIP's? What? Are you crazy?" The culture there is different, yet it's not inherently wrong.

Oh (and I *swear* it wasn't thinking about Harry Potter fandom that brought this to mind *g*): links should be provided to what constitutes plagiarism, since it's clear (in fandom and in my students' essays *g*) that some people really don't understand that it's not just about stealing dialogue or even plots. Notes could be included about getting permission for use of original characters, fan-created alternate universes, and when/if those permissions *don't* have to be considered any more, because some of those issues can be thorny. For instance, Mag7 isn't one of my fandoms, but I know that the ATF universe is being used by tons of people when they write stories. Does someone (i.e., the first person to set Mag7's characters in the ATF universe) still have the right to say "get the hell out of my AU?" or has that universe entered the public domain at this point?

Okay. I'm shutting up now.

[jacquez.livejournal.com]

I wonder if you might want to bring up some fandom differences. Someone on fca-l this morning mentioned that the firefly vid flap might not've happened in an anime fandom, because in anime fandoms, fanvids are assumed to be available for passing around. So a general "be aware that what is acceptable in one fandom might not be acceptable in another" thing could be helpful, and emphasis on the "better safe than sorry/please-may i-thank you" stuff....

[dafna]

Maybe a section on ways to contribute to fandom other than writing fanfic? Because I think a lot of people want to give something back but the only thing they see people doing is writing stories -- or doing vids and maybe they're not so creative themselves? Both a list of obvious things, like feedback, but maybe also not so obvious, like buying paid LJ accounts or supporting scholarships to cons for those of us with more money than time.

Also, maybe profiles a la "I am Farscape". With like a paragraph written by different people about who they are in RL and online -- I know when I started I was sure I was the only one over the age of 12 who could possibly be into this. (chuckle).

Also, wordy McWord on pen names (from that excellent top10 list someone linked to).

[ratcreature]

If it is to be a "centralized fandom primer" (I assume fandom means "media fandom" in this context) it needs to consider that media fandom is really diverse both online and off, and that fandom, or even "media fandom", isn't synonymous with subsections like the "fanfic-centric media fandom", for example I had been in comic fandom for years (going to comic cons, reading magazines and fanzines, meeting with other fans to create comic zines, later even looking up comic info on the internet etc) before I ever saw any fanfic.

I think there are few things that apply everywhere in fandom, like it's a really bad idea to make profits with things that infringe on copyright; or to give such materials to actors or copyright holders (though that is already less universal than the first, while true in general, I mean, I've regularly seen comic fans showing their comic artwork, including some that contained copyrighted characters, to professionals and publishers for advice, sometimes, though not in all cases, in the hope of employment, and nobody thought anything was unusual about this, but really in comic fandom the division between "fan" and "professional" isn't as strict as in many other media, and obviously you only show your own artwork, not that of someone else).

Other than that it's mostly basic netiquette stuff that fans need to know, like that you don't post private mails, don't redistribute other people's content etc. and of course that "available for free on the net" does not equal "public domain", but really anybody who uses things with licenses (like for example software) should already know the differences between different types of usage rights you get when you download content.