Buh?

[tzikeh]

A simple question, looking for a simple answer:

If you believe that Snape is a traitor, and that he murdered Dumbledore for any reason other than that Dumbledore *begged* him to do it, can you comment here with an explanation of why you believe this?

Comments

[laddical.livejournal.com]

I'm sure such people exist, but... why? how? I'm curious to see the answers myself.

[tzikeh.livejournal.com]

I have no idea - the only people I've seen around lj who think Snape is EVIL don't seem to have anything to back them up except the surface of the facts and not the facts themselves. "He killed Dumbledore!" Uh... for so very many reasons, yes. "He's mean to Harry!" Mean =! Evil. etc. etc.

[cynicalgrl.livejournal.com]

My take on it was that Dumbledore was asking him for help...not death, really. Or he was asking him to "keep to the script" and notgive himself away. After all, Snape didn't go after anyone from the Order of Hogwarts, let alone help the Death Eaters during their fight. As much as I dislike him, I still belive he's part of the Order.

[tzikeh.livejournal.com]

Oh, I think Dumbledore was begging Snape to kill him - so that Draco wouldn't have to. He was asking Snape to fulfill his Unbreakable Vow, which was to watch over Draco and to complete Draco's task if Draco wasn't up to it. This way, Snape does both by killing Dumbledore and keeping Draco from becoming a murderer.

also -

[tzikeh.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I strongly dislike him, but I have no doubt he's still part of the Order. As for "keeping to the script" - yeah, Dumbledore was probably also pleading that Snape stay in Voldemort's good graces as it is *vital* now that the Order have someone on the inside.

Re: also -

[cynicalgrl.livejournal.com]

But how awesome was the Tonks/Lupin angle? I actually let out a LOUD "Yeeesss!!!" when i read that - I LOVE Lupin!

Re: also -

[tzikeh.livejournal.com]

Extremely lovely. We know so little of Tonks, but Remus needs some comfort, and she has the kind of spirit (or did) that Remus has shown he likes to be around.

Re: also -

[litalex.livejournal.com]

not to a SL/RL shipper like me! ;)

but yeah, Lupin should have someone.

[axiom_of_stripe]

hmm. i don't know as i have an opinion one way or another -- up until the draco crying thing, honestly, i was as sure as anyone that snape was totally dumbledore's man, but if draco can develop edges then anything can happen.

anyway, i do think it's possible that snape is...not evil, precisely, but playing both ends against the middle and waiting to see which the winning side is. it's possible that his little posture at bellatrix was based more on truth than dumbledore would like to believe. if his options were (a) kill dumbledore or (b) die, i can see the killing curse coming out.

this is not to say that it wasn't death dumbledore was asking for, or that snape didn't warn dumbledore of this possibility for his own reasons, or that dumbledore didn't actually realize this about snape and use it on purpose! it could very well be that snape killed dumbledore because it was safer for himself and that dumbledore planned his own death at snape's hands.

we'll see in book seven, eh?

[gritkitty.livejournal.com]

Snape sure keeps people guessing. I think he's on the Good Guys' side because Dumbledore said he trusts Snape, so even in the face of Snape's actions (mean to Harry and his friends, helpful to Malfoy, killing Dumbledore) I still think Snape is a fighter of evil.

However, two things trouble me, and a second, closer reading may help my understanding.

One: Yes, it seems to me that Dumbledore was asking Snape to do it, kill him, rather than force Malfoy, but if so, then I think it was a split decision, based on the circumstances at the moment: it seemed clear to me that Dumbledor's primary motivation for reaching Snape was for help with his injuries. This doesn't bother me too much, but Snape's murder of Dumbledore sure would be a great point of proof that he was evil if we find out in the last book that he *was* Evil with a capital E.

Two: This one bothers me more, because Snape disdains the singular thing that Dumbledore advocates as the best weapon against You Know Who. When Snape made fun of Tonks's new Patronis, he said something about how it was, or it made her, "weaker". Tonks's Patronis changed because of love, and love is the one thing Dumbledore put his ultimate faith in.

I still think Snape is good. He's a fucking AWEsome actor, whether he's good or evil!!

[tzikeh.livejournal.com]

He's a fucking AWEsome actor, whether he's good or evil!!

Man, no lie. What an astounding job he's doing no matter what.

[musesfool.livejournal.com]

I think it's just a kneejerk first reaction. OMG SNAPE'S BEEN EVIL ALL ALONG!

[dubhartach.livejournal.com]

He is a great actor whichever way it falls since he has been fooling Dumbledore or Voldemort or both

To make the "he's evil" argument is actually surprisingly easy. We have no actual proof of his goodness - we have scenes that can be interpreted both ways (and again, obviously have been since both D&V continue to seemingly trust him) throughout the books.

Specifically to HBP - Snape knows Draco's task before he makes the Unbreakable Vow - he is too specific about why he can't do it himself not to know.

Dumbledore asking for Snape happens before he sees the Dark Mark - therefore he wants Snapes help with the poisoning.

The pleading with Snape is because he realises Snape is "evil" and is still holding out for Snape to be redeemed.

Knowing about Draco's task? Well, it's obvious Draco is up to something, and evil Snape would have had to tell Dumbledore something.

The fight in the woods that Hagrid overhears? Yes, unlikely to be evil Snape risking making Dumbledore suspicious by backing out of something BUT could well be evil Snape pretending he couldn't kill Dumbledore.

However. If I belived evil Snape (which I don't) the only bit I could not explain is his actions towards Harry at the end.

I think we have to believe that Voldemort has said that the DEs are not to kill Harry - too risking for Snape for it to be otherwise. But I can't imagine V would be too upset by a little crucioing. But Snape doesn't. He deflects every spell, he doesn't attack, he stops the other DE attacking. Ok, ok, maybe V really has said no one is to do *anything* to Harry at all.

That still doesn't explain why an evil Snape would take the opportunity to *give Harry advice* in the middle of the fight - "deflected and deflected again until you learn to control your anger and keep your mind closed." Has he slipped into "teacher" mode? Yeah right, cause that is so Snape. Did he just slip up? See "great actor" for why that is not the case.

I think overall you can interpret it both ways with surprising ease. And she has been vague enough in interview to not help with this. Which is great. Fabulous.

But he is still not evil!

[beck-liz.livejournal.com]

That still doesn't explain why an evil Snape would take the opportunity to *give Harry advice* in the middle of the fight

You know, I think that's the best argument right there as to Snape still being "Dumbledore's Man". All the rest, I think, could probably be explained away. But it makes no sense, if he's not on Harry's side, why he would offer him advice and continued instruction. In the middle of a fight, no less. I can't believe he would do that unless he actually wanted to help Harry. Otherwise, I'd think he'd want Harry to make as many stupid mistakes and be as out-of-control as possible.

[tzikeh.livejournal.com]

The pleading with Snape is because he realises Snape is "evil" and is still holding out for Snape to be redeemed.

This is the one that makes it clear to me that Snape isn't evil - because Dumbledore would never plead for his life. And certainly not with a Death Eater.

the only bit I could not explain is his actions towards Harry at the end.

I completely agree. Snape wouldn't take the time to offer advice, even in a taunting manner, if he weren't trying to get Harry to *learn something useful*.

[dubhartach.livejournal.com]

Ah, but he's not pleading for his life, he's pleading as he doesn't want *Snape* to kill him. He's realised Snape has been Voldemort's man all along but, old fool that he is, he's still holding out hope for Snape's redemption, redemption which will be all but impossible if Snape kills Dumbledore in cold blood.

Heh. This is fun. Well, it is as long as I hold the belief that Snape is "good"

Hmmm...

[door-oakheart.livejournal.com]

...I am currently embarking on a re-read of the rest of the series in an effort to come up with an answer to this 'simple' question!!

Re: Hmmm...

[tzikeh.livejournal.com]

Yeah. I don't believe for a second that he's been a triple-agent all along. I believe he's Dumbledore's man. I'm just trying to find an argument that could be made for the opposite side that was worth taking into consideration, because I haven't found one yet that plays out for me.

Re: Hmmm...

[door-oakheart.livejournal.com]

(All of the following, of course, just IMO...)

I'm leaning the same way. The "begging" of Dumbledore was, I believe, a plea for Snape to do what he has been bound to do for the sake of something more important, and not to chicken out.

Dumbledore paralyzed Harry for a reason. He did not want Harry to interfere with what was about to happen. He wanted Harry to see it and NOT stop it. It was all planned beforehand.

If Snape *is* a triple agent and I am totally wrong, then JK Rowling is freakin' brilliant. She's brilliant anyway, because the only thing she's written that would make you believe Snape ISN'T evil, is that Dumbledore believed he was not.

I guess we just have to RAFO!!!!!

[whatssnoo.livejournal.com]

the most interesting defense of the "Snape is evil" side I've come across was summed up as:

Dumbledore was fatally wrong. Harry was right. The baton has passed to Harry. If Dumbledore and Snape did plot it between them, then Harry is not yet adult: he is still Dumbledore's pawn even after the man's death.

Quote from here, in the comments to this (imo fairly wrong-headed) review.

[itsthewa.livejournal.com]

It seems likely that when Dumbledore asked Harry to bring Snape and Snape alone when they arrived back at Hogwarts, it was not becasue he expected Snape to cure him. It could be that Dumbledore knew that what he had drunk was fatal, that he was dying, so he wanted Snape kill him before that happened. Snape's killing Dumbledore before he could die on his own would accomplish three things: 1)It would save Draco from having to kill him (or deciding not to kill him, which would have endangered his parents); 2) It would have fulfilled Snape's Unbreakable vow, thus saving Snape's life; and 3) it would've solidified Voldemort's confidence in Snape, thereby giving the good side an even better-connected spy than ever.

I can see two problems with or concerns about that theory (which I do think, BTW, the most probable one). First, Snape made the Unbreakable Vow long before it was known Dunbledore would be in a position to want to die. So how Snape was going to pull that off is problematic at best.

Second, while I do believe Snape's still secretly working against Voldemort somehow, I have to admit I think it would be terribly cool if it turns out that Dumbledore was just wrong, that the love he trusts as a weapon against Dark Magic can be a weakness too, becuase it allowed Dumbledore to forgive Snape for having helped Voldemort years before and to believe in Snape's good intentions. After all, Dumbledore himself said in HBP that since he was so wise and powerful, it meant that the mistakes he did make would be that much huger.

It would be awfully neat if those words turned out to be prophetic. In all the other books, Dumbledore has always been right at the end. It would be an interesting and untelegraphed twist if it turned out that, just once, he was not. That Harry must contend with the fact that even the greatest and wisest can screw up, thus making making it all the more imperative for him to stand up on his own.

Not that that I think that will happen. :) It seems quite clear that Snape and Dumbledore had an inside plan. It's just... it would be kinda cool.

[tzikeh.livejournal.com]

Snape made the Unbreakable Vow long before it was known Dunbledore would be in a position to want to die.

True enough - but did Snape really know what he was swearing to do? Because when we overhear him with Draco, it sounds like he's trying to get Draco to tell him what's up. So maybe he made that Vow to keep his cover, went to Dumbledore with it, and then when he came up on the tower, between Dumbledore and Draco, he figured it out.

I have to admit I think it would be terribly cool if it turns out that Dumbledore was just wrong,

I agree that for a certain amount of "ha, I told you so", that could be interesting, but dramatically there's far less of a payoff if Dumbledore was wrong *and is dead*. Because if we don't get the reaction to this horrific error, it's kinda fizzly rather than explodey.

[litalex.livejournal.com]

well, although I can certainly argue for a Snape who is still keeping his options open, I don't think it's possible to argue for one who is working for Voldemort.

So I can't answer your question. But the book made me want to hurl it across the room, despite the heavier focus on Tommy, Severus, and Draco. And yeah, a Slytherin who isn't OMG!Evil at first glimpse.

[amizada.livejournal.com]

Hope you don't mind me friending you. I read a response by you at another journal about the H/Hr shippers and loved you immediately, LOL.

[tzikeh.livejournal.com]

No problem with you adding me at all - just to warn you though, I'm usually not that exciting. ;)

[wemblee.livejournal.com]

I'd like to say that it was this entry (http://www.livejournal.com/users/junediamanti/137229.html) by junediamanti that pushed me back, however reluctantly, to the Snape-As-Black-Hat side, but (despite the eloquence of the entry), it was actually something else I read that was, [insert white space here] (You probably know what I'm talking about, but I don't know if it counts as a spoiler, and... gah.)

I hope he's not a traitor. I'd prefer it muchly.

[tzikeh.livejournal.com]

Huh - I don't know what the spoiler thingy is that you've white-texted, but I am just not convinced by that essay (though I thank you for pointing it out!). I just ... nothing's made me reconsider my opinions of his actions. I guess we'll see!

[wemblee.livejournal.com]

Sorry, I was extremely tired when I replied and not using the best judgement. (Kind of like now, actually! *g* Still, my inbox is full, and when I put things off...) The white-text is me trying to really vaguely refer to JKR's Mugglenet interview, but at the time, I was so paranoid (and tired) that that would count as a spoiler of some kind (bzuh?), so... yes. But, yeah, basically: it seemed like JKR politely shot it down, though other people have read her comment differently. If it hadn't been for that, I'd be on board the White Hat Train, baby! I'm still sort of... half on the train. One foot on. I *want* to be on. *g*

[tzikeh.livejournal.com]

I still don't know what you mean - what did she say?

I think I may have done a bad thing here.

[wemblee.livejournal.com]

Oh, man. I kinda wish I hadn't read it, but the link is here (http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/extras/aa-jointerview2.html) and bethbethbeth quotes the relevant part here (http://www.livejournal.com/users/bethbethbeth/209258.html#cutid1).

Some say the comment doesn't mean Snape can't be on the side of good in the end; I sort of took it as her politely shooting the "Dumbledore-ordered-Snape-to-kill-him" theory down, but mileage, as always, varies. I hope I haven't led you to something that will dishearten you. :(

Re: I think I may have done a bad thing here.

[tzikeh.livejournal.com]

Oh, *that*. HEE! No worries - I'd read that; I just didn't know what you were referring to. Eh -that doesn't throw me toward one way of thinking or another -- she's extremely canny at giving interviews without actually saying anything, so if you think that suggests A or B or whatever, you can't be certain. Maybe Dumbledore wasn't *planning* to die, but when he saw Draco fail at the job, he knew Snape had to do it. Could be anything. JKR could have heard "planning" to mean "all along", and maybe DD wasn't until this happened.

I think there's evidence to both sides, but I think the Unbreakable Vow was pretty much at play, whatever is going on. I don't think Snape killed Dumbledore for any reason other than that he had to, regardless of whose side he's "really" on in the end. And there's pleny to chew on either way. If he's really evil and my gut instincts are wrong, then as long as there's some support for it in the end, that'll be fine with me, if not a little disappointing in terms of making the series les exciting in retrospect. But we shall see!

Re: I think I may have done a bad thing here.

[wemblee.livejournal.com]

Phew! I was so worried I was, like, showing you an Interview Snippage Of Doom! :D *clings to your logic* I hope he isn't evil. It would be so... anti-climactic, I feel. But yes, we shall see.

Iconlove!