Things that make me go "hmmm."

[tzikeh]

The Sopranos. Life on Mars. Battlestar Galactica. (ETA: The Prisoner.)

Every time there's a spectacularly polarizing finale to one of the shows I love, I always (thus far) come down on the "that was awesome, and a perfect way to end the show" side. I'm not sure what that says about me; perhaps it doesn't mean anything at all—but it makes me go "hmmm." To paraphrase Auric Goldfinger: "Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times an interesting pattern to be mulled over." (The actual quote is "Three times is enemy action," but let's not go there. *g*)

I don't think it's the "We're not watching the same show" syndrome, because oftentimes the people who are on the "UGH!" side of things have been of a like mind with me about the show, generally right up 'til the finale. Still it must be something akin, or tangential, to that.

Please don't spoil any of those shows in comments, and please don't point out everything you think was wrong and bad about any of the finales. The "you're just not reading it right!" // "you're just reading into it!" argument is so tiring, and rarely has any kind of positive outcome. I'm just wondering aloud--or whatever the internet version of "aloud" is.

Hmmm.

Comments

[casirafics.livejournal.com]

I'd always heard that statement as chance / coincidence / conspiracy. ;) Funny how these things vary....

Personally, I'm just so sick of negativity in fandom that I've pretty much given up on fandom, period. Or at least I've become something of a hermit. *wry smile* There's too much other shit going on in my life to get frothing-at-the-mouth angry over stuff that does. not. matter, and so I go to shows like this looking for the awesome; I take what is, learn from the rest, and then LET IT GO.

At least it's less crazy-making.

[tzikeh.livejournal.com]

I'd always heard that statement as chance / coincidence / conspiracy. ;) Funny how these things vary....

Then someone stole it from Ian Fleming and modified it. But I like that just as well. :)

The negativity is pervasive, but I kind of do what you do with shows; look for awesome, and let go of the negativity. Um. As much as I can. I try to follow cereta's Law: Determine if you would rather take part in any given argument, or read porn. Act accordingly.

Sometimes I fail. But I'm learning. I mean, yes, on one hand, the shows don't matter in The Grand Scheme Of Things. On the other hand, if we invest our emotional selves in something for x number of years, the outcome can be *very* important. So again -- how important? Important enough that you'd rather debate it than read porn? Go right ahead. More and more, I'll be over here, loving my shows. And looking for porn.

[lapillus]

Do you notice anything about all three that makes them all work for you but that seem to piss off lots of other folks? Happiness of endings? Characters living on afterwards? Having not seen the endings to any of them but having happily spoiled myself for all three, I'm content to ask questions rather than add statements.

[tzikeh.livejournal.com]

No, it's not about the "ending" ending, or who lives and who dies. It's more about resolutions (or lack thereof) to plot threads; meanings of earlier hints / plot points, character decisions, etc. To be honest, I've hardly read any lj posts about the BSG finale, because most of the cut-tags are warnings that the post is cranky / angry / full of disappointment, and right now I'm still enjoying what I feel about the finale.

Now that I've put some of that down, I think a lot of it, though not all, is about meaning. What did it all *mean*. And, though I still don't know why, I'm very very happy with the meaning of all three of those show's finales.

That's not all there is too it, but thanks for getting me thinking about that!

[lapillus]

That's not all there is too it, but thanks for getting me thinking about that!

Cool! If you have further musing I'll be interested to read them. I may even be inspired to post what I make of the ending once I see it (postponed now due to technical glitches.) I know that I'm more concerned with a "right" ending (for some unexamined version of "right") than I am a happy one. I've always been very fond of the end of Blake's7 :)

[reginagiraffe]

Could it be that you are more willing to let things end, than other people are? And that you are less annoyed by things not being all wrapped up in a big bow? That you don't mind things a bit messy?

[tzikeh.livejournal.com]

I think, in addressing this particular interpretation, that I don't that things that aren't wrapped are necessarily "messy". I think they're part and parcel of the storyline. At least in these instances. ETA: The icon isn't in response to your question; it's just one more show with an ending I love that many people hate.

[misspamela.livejournal.com]

It means you think like a showrunner. ;)

[tzikeh.livejournal.com]

:P

[very-improbable.livejournal.com]

That is probably a good answer, now that I think of it.

[tzikeh.livejournal.com]

Actually, I'd like it if you'd explain this comment, because the more I think about it, the more I feel like it's somewhat of an insult--i.e. I don't have a problem with the ending because "my show is awesome therefore my finale is awesome," like I don't have any critical faculty to examine what happens in a finale. I don't *think* that's what you meant, but... can you expand on this?

[misspamela.livejournal.com]

*facepalm* No, no insult intended! I just meant that the things that make narrative sense to you (who lives, who dies, completion of story arcs) are also what make sense to people who are writing the shows.

[sdwolfpup.livejournal.com]

omg LIFE ON MARS ENDING. *flails*

Hee.

[tzikeh.livejournal.com]

INORITE??

[laurashapiro.livejournal.com]

I am normally pretty forgiving and I tend to like finales as long as they satisfy some fairly basic emotional and narrative needs created by the show up to that point.

And arguably, the BSG finale did, particularly in terms of the characters. And characters are the Main Thing, for me and for a lot of other fans.

In this particular instance, I felt it was a problem of the show suddenly doing a screeching 180 in the last hour, and that bothers me a lot. But most of the other aspects of the wrap-up I liked a lot.

[tzikeh.livejournal.com]

I would be curious to communicate with you in private about the 180, but only because I trust you as a discussion partner that we wouldn't devolve into "You're not seeing what I see!"

[laurashapiro.livejournal.com]

Well, I did do a post about my problems with it, so you can look and see if you think I'm a freak. (:

My initial response, much more favorable, is here.

[loz]

Maybe it's about how much you're willing to forgive and infer in writers as long as they take the characters on a journey you approve? You don't mind plotholes or nonsensical elements, things that don't always jive with past canon, as long as they head towards an outcome that meets your emotional requirements?

ETA: Which isn't to say any of these finales necessarily have these *shifty eyes*, but these are elements that a lot of endings tend to have for one reason or another.

[tzikeh.livejournal.com]

I'm... not sure? At least for the three finales mentioned above, I don't feel like I had to forgive nearly anything at all. I didn't see anything I had to hand-wave or fan-wank. I also have never seen a tv show that had perfect, 100% consistent canon, so I don't expect it. (*MAYBE* The Wire is an exception.) But I do tend to think that many things people complain about making no sense *do* make perfect sense to me.

[loz]

But I'm thinking on a subconscious level here --- you're more likely not to worry if something didn't go 'the way it was meant to go', or the way a lot of people inferred it would go. You don't make your mind up before you see it, maybe?

Like. Okay, I have to be specific here. I essentially got the ending I wanted for LoM in all kinds of ways; hence, I was happy, happy, joy, joy there for a few hours. I'll say a day. I was happy for a day. But then I thought about it, and thought about it and --- that was my mistake right there, really.

I can't get over certain elements of that finale as written, even if I do actually agree with the core message. So. We definitely watched the same show, and I know what I was supposed to feel, because I felt it, for a while. But there are still things that just niggle at me; and most of them don't just tie into the finale, but the whole of S2*, which I don't consider to be as sophisticated as S1, but I do love all the same. I'm not vehement "HATE, HAAAAATE" about the final episode like that tiny but vocal minority of LoM fandom are. But I'm also not "LOVE, LOOOOOVE" like most everyone else is.

ETA: *Actually, a lot of my problems are also an 'entire concept' thing.

[suaine.livejournal.com]

I loved the Life on Mars finale with a vengeance. It's probably unsurprising that I also loved the BSG finale. Holy frak. I went in careful, because I'd read all the non-spoilery reactions on my flist - I knew I could love it or hate it or possibly be "meh" about it.

But I loved it. So much. I have no words for how much.

[tzikeh.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I am pretty much in love with both of those finales, and The Sopranos too, which was equally as polarizing. But all of the "answers" were there, and yet many people didn't see it that way. It's hard to say they were there for me and not for others, because no, seriously, they were right there in front of you. So I'm not sure how to explain that without getting into the fight I desperately want to avoid. Often, as musesfool says below, I think some fans get very very invested in how they think the show must end, and when it doesn't end that way, they feel betrayed.

[suaine.livejournal.com]

I think part of it is probably that when I see a narrative like BSG or LoM, I'm not rooting for a particular thing, a pairing or a particular way to end things, I just want the author to take my hand and show me something interesting. And in both LoM and BSG they did that. It felt more like reading a riveting novel than a fannish show.

To me, BSG provided a beautiful arc both thematically and emotionally. I got what I came for. I wasn't fannish about BSG in the way I'm fannish about Merlin - it's never been a show where I wanted to fill in the blanks, because I always trusted the PTB to fill them for me. I always knew, even when it was depressing and dark and gritty, or hallucinatory and insane, that they had a point. That they were building toward something. So I waited and let the show play out without getting too attached to a person or thing. I mean, there were times when BSG broke my heart, and in season two I was frequently skeeved and annoyed, but it was never...

It was never *my* characters. I think that might be it. I loved them deeply, all of them, even when they were horrible idiots, but they weren't mine. I had no claim on them, no right of ownership. This is different for shows like SGA, where the narrative is arguably has no direction, no point or theme the author is trying to convey, and the characters are what they are because we take the best of them and bend it into different shapes.

And I think this might be what happened. The people who did feel fannish in that way, who wrote and evolved these characters on their own, who loved them because they were *theirs* - those people could have found it lacking.

[tzikeh.livejournal.com]

This is *fascinating*. I need to think about this for a while. Thank you for this!

[mirandir.livejournal.com]

Hmmm. I wonder what people who didn't like the endings to those three shows would consider a "good" ending.

[tzikeh.livejournal.com]

This is a wonderful question. And no finale to a great show is going to satisfy everyone.

[luminosity]

My shows are my happy place, and if I can't be happy in that place, then I won't watch the show. Hence, therefore, ergo, I'm usually okay with the finales. Sad, but okay. It's not that I can't criticize the crap out of any show (and often do) or see what people are bitching about others' valid points, but goddammit, my shows are my happy place!!! If I wanted negativity and bitching, I could tune to Fox News or talk to my mother.

In their entireties, all three of the shows you mentioned have changed how I view television, what I expect from a show. All three endings carried on that tradition.

I've not read a single BSG finale post because I don't want to harsh my own squee. I hardly ever read posts right after my my current obsession airs for the same reason.

*sings* You may say I'm a dreamer but I'm not the only one...

[tzikeh.livejournal.com]

Indeed. My shows are happy places--even if they're incredibly thematically depressing shows (Mad Men, anyone?). Weird, but true. And yeah, all three of these shows definitely broke tv show "rules", which, again, might be part of the problems some people have with how they end. Is a puzzlement.

[musesfool.livejournal.com]

I think people get really invested in their own version of how things should end, and when the shows don't conform to that - when in some cases the shows provide the very antithesis of that - they feel betrayed and get angry. They want a Hamlet ending and get a happily ever after, or vice versa, and it doesn't jibe with the mental canon they've built up (or the HEA doesn't match their pairings etc.).

I have to admit, the BSG finale is one of the few I've seen that's really wowed me and satisfied me emotionally. I liked Chosen all right, for example, and the series finale of The Wire. I thought the finale of the Sopranos was eh, but I had stopped being emotionally invested in it a long time ago.

In the case of BSG, the show satisfied me emotionally, mostly, so I am okay with how it went, especially since I was expecting something vastly different.

I think as long as something makes sense for the characters, I don't really worry too much about the mystery plots being wrapped up.

[tzikeh.livejournal.com]

I think people get really invested in their own version of how things should end, and when the shows don't conform to that - when in some cases the shows provide the very antithesis of that - they feel betrayed and get angry.

Oh *yes*. That's a very, very good point. Invested in the show != invested in *my particular vision of where the show should go*. Like the Harry/Hermione people, who simply could not read the books to the point that it was obvious they didn't know *how* to read a book properly. Though that is an extreme example.

[grey-bard.livejournal.com]

I'm not always happy with finales, and I think that's valid - although being happy with them is also valid and I acknowledge it.

I don't expect the world from a finale, and I'm often happy with them. Just not always.

I think... Hmm. I think what I'm usually looking for from a finale is that it matches the tone and the theme of the rest of the show. If it does that, usually I'm happy.

The kind that is likely to bother me are the endings to shows that keep promising that they have a Big Master Plan and all will become clear in the end. If the master plan turns out to be something I consider brilliant, and the ending emotionally pays off for me, then I love this above all other kinds of shows. But if it doesn't, I feel cheated. That's all very personal and subjective, but there you are.

This is why I tend not to watch shows like that when they're on the air anymore, and just wait until the series ends. That way, if it ends in a fashion I consider brilliant and worthwhile, I can rent the dvds and gulp it down happily, and if it seems to meander off somewhere that I would find disappointing, I don't get invested in it. See: Battlestar Galactica and Lost. I just don't trust in the Brilliant Ending sight unseen anymore, and I take this into account in my viewing habits.

Shows that don't promise a huge payoff at the end, I can happily watch as they air. They're more likely to end with a "just another episode" ending, but I'm really okay with that because that's all I was led to expect.

People who are more trusting or less invested in The Big Payoff obviously would react to endings in a less emotional fashion. That's my theory.

[tzikeh.livejournal.com]

That way, if it ends in a fashion I consider brilliant and worthwhile, I can rent the dvds and gulp it down happily, and if it seems to meander off somewhere that I would find disappointing, I don't get invested in it.

And I couldn't do that, because in order to do that I'd have to be spoiled for the ending, and I don't want to be. Oddly, I don't mind spoilers so much in the middle of a run, but I avoid them like crazy when the show is close to the end.

The thing for me is, I don't think an ending has to be a Brilliant Ending in order to be a completely satisfying ending (see: Sopranos).

I am invested in the Big Payoff, but I don't necessarily define "Big Payoff" with "everything is perfectly explained." Big Master Plans don't always play out as advertised, and not just because the writers didn't do their job well. Big Master Plans that get fucked up can be just as interesting and satisfying as those that don't, to me.

[grey-bard.livejournal.com]

Oh, I agree that endings don't need to be brilliant to be good - but if there's a huge build up and promise of that, and it doesn't come through, I personally find that very disappointing. I'm not talking about just not hugely spectacular, I'm talking about a true WTF or a big fizzle. Whereas if no Big Payoff is promised, I don't miss it not being there, if that makes sense.

I totally get the spoiler thing, and to be honest, *I'm* spoiled - in the other sense of the word. I know a lot of people who watch a lot of television and know my tastes, and if they say "This is so good, you'll love it, this one would be bad to be spoiled for, but watch it" I believe them and rent sight unseen. But on the other hand, without such warnings I generally fear no spoilers, and it doesn't seem to hurt my enjoyment. I completely get that this is not the way most people watch television.

Everyone's different, but I do think that I'm not alone in this. I think it *is* a pattern of a lot of people who are annoyed by endings that they are annoyed by the promise that doesn't pay off, you know? So if you're wondering why some people are consistently annoyed by endings that might be one reason. Not because it clashed with their personal vision of the show, but because what they got did not live up to the hype.

And sometimes I *do* watch shows where the ending fizzled or was not to my taste, but again I feel less invested, because coming into a closed canon, I never had my hopes up for better.

Just a matter of viewer personality type, I suspect.

[cereta.livejournal.com]

I think my biggest experience with this was the ending of Angel. slashspouse and I still argue over that one to this day - and I mean, we were arguing about it last night. To say that it has influenced the degree to which I no longer press him to finish the Dark Tower series is an understatement.

I suspect for me, I just got burned so often by cliffhanger endings (and I mean cliffhangers, not "there is some ambiguity") that if I've stuck it out with a show as long as the finale, I'm probably going to be happy as long as it ends, even if that ending is only a resolution of episodic issues.

[lydiabell.livejournal.com]

Does Quantum Leap throw a wrench into this theory?

[tzikeh.livejournal.com]

Not at all. I *adored* that ending. (I mean, I adored the other ending they scripted too, but I was so glad they chose to go with what they went with.)

[lydiabell.livejournal.com]

OK, I couldn't remember where you came down on that one. :)

ETA: I also liked it a lot. Not sure I know about the other ending they scripted.

[magdalene1.livejournal.com]

I've only watched Part I of the BSG finale, and no spoilers here, but I kept getting annoyed with flashbacks to Caprica - the pace of the, the number of them, when VERY IMPORTANT THINGS ARE HAPPENING RIGHT NOW IN SPACE to characters I might NEVER SEE AGAIN. So I'll be interested to see how they pay it all off. Flashbacks = why I stopped watching Lost after 1 season. So every time one of them came up I was like "sigh, this isn't space."

[tzikeh.livejournal.com]

They all pay off. And unfortunately, SciFi (SyFy my ass) sucks loads, as it was all supposed to air as one big finale.

[magdalene1.livejournal.com]

That is GOOD TO KNOW.

I'm here via Kassrachel and bayleaf and sanj, etc., and because I'm a film/video person and I love your spectacular "Puttin' on the Ritz."

[tzikeh.livejournal.com]

I love your spectacular "Puttin' on the Ritz."

Oh, thank you! But it's not just mine; killabeez and I collaborated on it extensively. I'm glad you like it, though!

[magdalene1.livejournal.com]

Dude, I would pay you guys for a hi-rez version on DVD that I could show my editing students and say THAT'S HOW IT'S DONE, PEOPLE.

[tzikeh.livejournal.com]

Okay -- where do you teach video editing? Because I live in Chicago, too.

[magdalene1.livejournal.com]

Columbia College (finishing an MFA there). Have we been like, passing each other in the halls all this time?

[tzikeh.livejournal.com]

Hee - no, I'm at NEIU getting a second Bachelor's plus a teaching certificate to teach English, Language Arts, and Drama in Junior High and High School.

But if you're amenable, I could come in and talk about the process. Every single one of those clips was either slowed down, sped up, tinted, flipped, or otherwise edited - sometimes down to a single frame being changed. I'm sure I can find the timeline somewhere - but I bet you teach on Avid, not Final Cut Pro.

[magdalene1.livejournal.com]

I teach Avid currently, yes, but use FCP at home and in more advanced classes.

We're past "lecture time" and into "go make your films" time in my current class, but maybe something over the summer could work. Plus I should just buy you a beer out of sheer "you're awesome"ness.

[tzikeh.livejournal.com]

LOL! Summer class schedule should be finalized shortly, so we could definitely schedule something. Plus I have some other vids you could look over.

[xenacryst.livejournal.com]

Me 3. I think I'm in a very different head space than most of my flist with regards to the BSG finale. You and me and J can all go sit in the corner of the bar and enjoy our BSG together, sound good?

[very-improbable.livejournal.com]

I loved the Prisoner finale, and recently had a very frustrating conversation with some friends who saw it for the first time and were like PERSONALLY OFFENDED by it. I was sort of like, look, that's what the fuck kind of show it was and it's awesome. But...you know, in the end, de gustibus and all that? I don't know, I think I thought I had something more coherent to say about it.

(I mostly enjoyed the first half of the BSG finale and found the second half preposterous, but I'm just mentioning that as a data point, not picking a fight. I dearly wanted to like the episode, and I'm glad you did.)