It's past time to cut through this fucking buillshit.

[tzikeh]

I have stayed out of the OTW insanity since it began. I didn't even know how to begin to talk about it, and I didn't want to wade in while things were shaking out, and I didn't want to read things that were going to make me angry, because I knew it would just cause me impotent rage, since there was nothing I would be able to do.



I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH PEOPLE WHO DON'T LIKE/DON'T WANT TO PARTICIPATE IN THE OTW IF THEIR PHILOSOPHIES ARE IN DIRECT CONFLICT (bolded now for those who fail at reading comprehension and think I'm defending OTW, instead of what I'm actually doing, which is bitching about people who hide their identities so that they can say nasty things about OTW), but I am so done with people who are against the OTW with absolutely no facts to back up their opposition. They are the Teabagging Party when it comes to OTW: frothing at the mouth with blind hatred, but they have absolutely no fucking facts and they just believe whatever their mental, seething leaders say without bothering with critical thought, or fact-finding of their own.

In case anyone reading this thinks that I'm somehow part of the OTW "machine," let me be crystal clear. I have no part in OTW. I'm not on the board, I'm not a beta-tester, I'm not a coder, I'm not part of the PR department, I'm not anything at all when it comes to the project. But I am DONE with this fucking insane bullshit Teabagger-mentality ignorance that has spread through some sections of fandom that are just spoiling for a fight with the OTW, because they've heard from someone who knows someone who said something they didn't like.

I have fucking HAD IT.

Whiny, shitty fucks who bitch about the OTW, but create sock-puppet accounts to do it so no one who knows them will know it was *them*, can shove it up their own asses. Cowards. Bullies. Those of you who have a beef with the OTW and have created sock-puppet accounts just to write about it? Show your faces, you craven pieces of shit. How dare you hide so that nobody who knows you finds out what you think. Afraid of conflict with people you know? Coward. You want to dish it out while not having to own it. Put up or shut up.

Comments

[tzikeh.livejournal.com]

But I must be monumentally laid-back because I always just assumed that you put something on the internet and it's kind of out there, forever.

Not only that -- but the AO3 *isn't collecting and archiving anyone's work*. It's there for people to upload their own work *if they want to*.

But as usual with fandom politics I'm probably missing something. And the reason I'm missing it is that I just don't really care.

Yes. This isn't about AO3; it's about the OTW. But as for missing something--stay that way. Stay innocent. Never ever wade into this. You will be a happier person for it.

[papilio-luna.livejournal.com]

You know, in theory (not like this has ever to my knowledge been done) I wouldn't even care if someone put my stories up elsewhere, even without telling me, as long as they didn't claim to be the author of them. I know that's super-duper bad form, but if I ever found that had been done I really don't think it would bother me all that much. I can't control what happens with it now that it's out there. Just don't be a dick and say you wrote it when you didn't and we're cool. The only area I draw a line (and even here I realise I can't control what people actually do, I just wish I could) is passing links to my stuff to people actually involved in the show. That's just horrifying. But again: I understand that *could* happen, and when I hit "submit" I've got to have my eyes open about that fact.

Fandom politics is just... ugh. Not for me. Fandom is a very diverting hobby, but I have no desire to make it in to serious business. The few times I have been a subject of wank have just been awful, sickening, extremely unfun occasions.

[tzikeh.livejournal.com]

The few times I have been a subject of wank have just been awful, sickening, extremely unfun occasions.

OMG, my very first dip-the-toe-in-the-water into Who fandom resulted in HUGE wank. I was mortified - until I later realized that Who fandom was composed nearly entirely *of* wank.

Still, I had to tread very lightly after that, because trying to make a few friends in Who fandom after that was like having to preface each comment on an lj with "Honest to God I'm not a psychotic wanker."

[papilio-luna.livejournal.com]

I now very much have a Do Not Engage policy with wider LJ Who fandom. I've got my flist, which is comprised mostly of fans, and I've got my readers on my other journal and, other than that, I don't actually discuss with anyone else. I at one point thought that participating in a reccing comm would be a simple and easy way to participate passively and be otherwise ignored but boy was I mistaken (worst. weekend. EVER). I'm not one of the fandom cool kids, I never will be. I (enthusiastically) like all the things you're supposed to hate, I've discovered, and I'm also a bit weary of Internets Sociologists trying to deconstruct everyone's fanfic.

There's a reason why my journal is flocked and I don't post any sort of fandom reviews or meta at my fic journal. Who fandom has a looooong memory.

[tzikeh.livejournal.com]

(worst. weekend. EVER).

Were you strapped to a dolly and rolled down a flight of stairs?

[papilio-luna.livejournal.com]

It felt very much like that, yes! And I was like "Wait guys, just unstrap me and I'll explain!" and fandom was like "No, it's much more amusing this way."

[amalthia]

I had no clue the Who fandom was wanky! Though to be fair I'm mostly only reading sam_storyteller's stories.

[kita0610.livejournal.com]

Ok, I have no horse in this race, but in order to separate fact from fiction, would you tell me this:

It's there for people to upload their own work *if they want to*.

Actually does not apply to Yuletide, correct? Because in order to participate, you MUST put your work on their archive. The only option is NOT to participate in one of, if not *the* biggest fan event of the year. And this was not made clear from the beginning of the process, which is what people who are not sock puppets are upset about.

Please correct me if I'm mistaken? Because this is what I am seeing on my friend's list, in polite, articulate, and usually locked posts.

[kadymae.livejournal.com]

It was made clear (to me) from the start this year, before sign ups, even. Yuletide 2009 was going to be hosted on/by AO3. I signed up and wrote with that understanding.

Now, I don't have a problem with my past Yuletide stories being moved there, but I can understand why people who do not want their works affiliated with AO3 would be quite pissed about the policy to move stories from years past.

[kita0610.livejournal.com]

You're right- that was the issue. The moving of prior stories. That is what people didn't seem to be aware of from the beginning, and what seems to be the main point of contention now, especially since it's either agree, or not be able to keep this year's Yuletide commitments. Or am I incorrect?

PS- Thanks for clarifying.

[tzikeh.livejournal.com]

The main issue behind the AO3 brouhaha--

From the Yuletide FAQ:

By signing up for Yuletide and uploading a story, you are agreeing to let us keep that story in the archive, for good. We will not agree to delete the story at any later date, for any reason, although we will remove all identifying information at your request (AKA "orphaning" a story--ed).

These are not stories you write in isolation: these are gifts you write for other people, to their prompts; you get a story of your own in return; and you have taken advantage of the work done to make the challenge work. Asking us to delete your story after you have gotten a story in return and collected your feedback is really not fair to your recipient or to the community. Someone spent their Yuletide requests to get a story created in a rare fandom of their heart, which may have very little else available or easily found online, and removing the story would rob them of that.

The Yuletide archive is the Yuletide archive, no matter where it resides--on the creaky old server, on the new, fan-owned server, or on Mars. If the authors didn't read the FAQ, that is not the mods' fault--the information has been right there for years.

I hope this doesn't come off as sharp, and I am certainly not angry or annoyed at you at all; I'm just so tired of it right now.

[tzikeh.livejournal.com]

Just a quick tidbit of more info on that.

[kadymae.livejournal.com]

The Yuletide archive is the Yuletide archive, no matter where it resides--on the creaky old server, on the new, fan-owned server, or on Mars. If the authors didn't read the FAQ, that is not the mods' fault--the information has been right there for years.

Yeah, but the people who don't like AO3 view it as the creation of a new archive, and they didn't agree to that. They agreed to YTT, not AO3.

It'a a hair splitter, but that's the hair they've chosen to split.

[lydiabell.livejournal.com]

That's sort of true, but it's not the policy of OTW or AO3. It's the policy of the Yuletide mods, who have chosen to move their archive to a more sustainable server. The AO3 isn't making anybody do anything. It gets a little bit fuzzier because there is overlap between the Yuletide mods and AO3 staff, but at the base this is a Yuletide decision.

From my perspective, people who participated in Yuletide agreed to have their stories remain in the Yuletide archive. AFAIK, it's always been the case that if people didn't like that, their only option was not to participate. It's just that now the Yuletide archive is being hosted by an organization that some people don't like. I don't think that there was ever an implied agreement that the Yuletide archive would stay on the same host forever. Especially when it *couldn't* anymore.

I think that the whole AO3 move, though it was communicated, could have been communicated more clearly. I'm just cynical enough to think that we still would have seen most of the drama.

ETA: that's what I get for taking so long to compose a comment that about 3 people got there ahead of me. ::facepalm::

[kita0610.livejournal.com]

It's the policy of the Yuletide mods, who have chosen to move their archive to a more sustainable server.

OH. Ok- yes, in my mind Yuletide people=AO3 people. D'oh.

ETA: Hee. No worries, it still clarifies. Thanks.

[lydiabell.livejournal.com]

OH. Ok- yes, in my mind Yuletide people=AO3 people. D'oh.

There is significant overlap! But they're two separate projects with totally separate histories.

Mmm, icon.

[ithiliana.livejournal.com]

I agree totally that perhaps there could have been clearer communication although the fact that someone who has not participated in the last five years is having major conniptions because she hasn't been notified YET makes me also agree with your second point.

[elf]

I suspect that clearer communication would've brought significantly more drama--of a different flavor.

Right now, there's drama saying, "wait, what? New archive whowhatwhere? No; I was comfy with old archive; new archive is big scary unknown." Which IMHO is a reasonable reaction, and it's unfortunate there's not much that can be done to mitigate that.

If the move had been announced with bells & whistles and email notifications to all previous YT authors, there would have been a swarm of "WTF no way huh why?" reactions, and a heaping side helping of "ack ack OTW taking over the faniverse; stop them!!!"

Not that those aren't happening, but they're not *much* feeding into the confusion and general unease that some authors have about the move. (I consider less than 10 argumentative posts a fairly small wankstorm. I think more active outreach-communication about the change would've resulted in dozens of confused and hostile posts all tangled up with each other.)

[liviapenn.livejournal.com]

And this was not made clear from the beginning of the process, which is what people who are not sock puppets are upset about.

Please correct me if I'm mistaken?

Well, don't take our word for it; you can go to yuletide_admin and see for yourself, actually.

The first AO3-related announcement was *last year*. November 12, 2008: The AutomatedArchive software that Yuletide is based on, while it has served us long and well, is old and fragile. Also it is mostly not getting fixed because what serious coding time and energy yours truly has is going to work on the big shiny replacement, the Archive of Our Own software.

OK, you could argue that that doesn't clearly indicate that the archive will actually be subsumed into the larger AO3 archive. Fair enough, but if anyone had questions about what it meant, they had *all year* to ask.

Next, on on October 13, 2009: The OTW is of great interest for Yuletide, as eventually we will be moving under the overall umbrella of the Archive of Our Own (AO3). Well, that seems pretty clear to me. Yuletide will be moving under the umbrella of the AO3. Again, if anyone had questions, that would've been the time to ask.

They weren't exactly trying to sneak the OTW connection under the radar; this post had an uncut, prominently displayed *picture* included, of OTW merchandise with a prominently displayed OTW logo. You couldn't miss it even if you were just skimming the text. Anyone who had objections or reservations about an OTW connection could've asked for clarification at this point. This was a full three weeks before sign-ups began.

Finally, on on November 04: So while we are doing signup on the old code, we will be moving to the shiny new Archive of Our Own (about to go into Open Beta) for posting and reveal. Again, this was a *pre-signup* announcement. I don't see how it could have been more clear without having been in all-caps: SIGNUPS ON OLD ARCHIVE, POSTING AT NEW ARCHIVE.

If there are people out there who are *so invested* in Yuletide that it is the biggest fan event of the year for them, then I think the *least* they can be expected to do is to pay attention to the admin posts.

[kita0610.livejournal.com]

Yes, that's what three people above have explained, thanks.

[liviapenn.livejournal.com]

You're welcome. I just thought the links to the actual posts might be useful for other people who were confused about whether the mods had actually made it clear that the entire archive *was* going to be replaced/moving/under the umbrella of the A03.

[ithiliana.livejournal.com]

You are correct in saying that Yuletide is different.

However, from what I have seen from participants is that in great big letter in emails sent to participants this year was the news that YT would be hosted on A03.

They have also been announcing it on the Yuletide Admin LJ community which, if I were a participant in YT, I'd have friended (or if I'm not on LJ, put on a feed to follow).

I am quite sure that people missed the announcement, but it was made in multiple places.

The old archive is about to die (major problems last year).

One of the REASONS for A03, if I am remembering/reading correctly, is that it would be advanced/big/good enough to host COLLECTIONS as well as individual fics and eventually fan art and graphics.

And Yuletide has always said your gift fic belongs to the archive; you cannot take it down. The old archive would not allow users to take stuff down (if I understand correctly); the new archive will, although it will lead to people not being allowed to participate in future. (The new archive does allow for orphaning).

You always had to agree to let YT put your work on their archive--that hasn't changed, just the archive.

I'm involved in OTW in a very small way (the journal), and not at all in YT.

But the change was announced.

[tzikeh.livejournal.com]

However, from what I have seen from participants is that in great big letter in emails sent to participants this year was the news that YT would be hosted on A03.

They have also been announcing it on the Yuletide Admin LJ community which, if I were a participant in YT, I'd have friended (or if I'm not on LJ, put on a feed to follow).

And here's where we make our first mistake: we assume that people read. We really must stop assuming that.

It was announced in 2008 that it would be moving to AO3. It was announced in 2009 that it would be moving. Emails were sent that it would be moving. Etc., etc., etc.

Re: yuletide_admin: it is repeatedly requested of all participants that they watch the admin communication for important announcements, as that is the entire purpose of that comm.

Yuletide had someone show up this year who posted in the comm that she should not have to read anything in order to participate, and that it was unfair that there was any expectation of her having to learn about what she was getting into.

I am not making this up.

[ithiliana.livejournal.com]

I see this on my campus all the time where email is official mode of communication: I don't even blame students when faculty colleagues do NOT read their freaking email.

I know we get a bunch.

I know the stupid listservs send "management only" out to everybody.

I know it's a pain in the butt, BUT, if you don't skim the chaff, don't complain if you cannot get the wheat.

Yes, it's a pain (especially when stupid spam filter filters out student emails but not the offers for Viagra and Spanking), but still.

We're deluged in info, but you really don't get to complain if your response to all that is, as one colleague's of mine is, to DELETE everything from administration.

Sorry, a hobby horse of mine.

I saw that person (the "I should not have to join obscure com")? Yeah.

I guess she expected the mods to come to her house personally and fill her in on everything over a cup of tea?

Or would that be stalking....

[franzeska]

What also gets me is how little the whiners seem to get that yuletide has a very limited number of mods and they just might be people too. I do understand why people might be startled/disappointed/angry/whatever, and I do understand why things might come out wrong, but to be surprised that the yuletide mods get upset when you basically attack them and projects they hold dear...? How exactly would you expect someone to react? Sheesh, people.