It's past time to cut through this fucking buillshit.

[tzikeh]

I have stayed out of the OTW insanity since it began. I didn't even know how to begin to talk about it, and I didn't want to wade in while things were shaking out, and I didn't want to read things that were going to make me angry, because I knew it would just cause me impotent rage, since there was nothing I would be able to do.



I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH PEOPLE WHO DON'T LIKE/DON'T WANT TO PARTICIPATE IN THE OTW IF THEIR PHILOSOPHIES ARE IN DIRECT CONFLICT (bolded now for those who fail at reading comprehension and think I'm defending OTW, instead of what I'm actually doing, which is bitching about people who hide their identities so that they can say nasty things about OTW), but I am so done with people who are against the OTW with absolutely no facts to back up their opposition. They are the Teabagging Party when it comes to OTW: frothing at the mouth with blind hatred, but they have absolutely no fucking facts and they just believe whatever their mental, seething leaders say without bothering with critical thought, or fact-finding of their own.

In case anyone reading this thinks that I'm somehow part of the OTW "machine," let me be crystal clear. I have no part in OTW. I'm not on the board, I'm not a beta-tester, I'm not a coder, I'm not part of the PR department, I'm not anything at all when it comes to the project. But I am DONE with this fucking insane bullshit Teabagger-mentality ignorance that has spread through some sections of fandom that are just spoiling for a fight with the OTW, because they've heard from someone who knows someone who said something they didn't like.

I have fucking HAD IT.

Whiny, shitty fucks who bitch about the OTW, but create sock-puppet accounts to do it so no one who knows them will know it was *them*, can shove it up their own asses. Cowards. Bullies. Those of you who have a beef with the OTW and have created sock-puppet accounts just to write about it? Show your faces, you craven pieces of shit. How dare you hide so that nobody who knows you finds out what you think. Afraid of conflict with people you know? Coward. You want to dish it out while not having to own it. Put up or shut up.

Comments

[mecurtin.livejournal.com]

Who is this salvidar person, we wonders? They sure haven't been puppeting long, with that account at any rate.

[tzikeh.livejournal.com]

Yeah, the account is 10 days old, has no posts, and no friends except itself.

Yet she can't imagine why I'd call it a sock puppet.

[nestra.livejournal.com]

Oh, yes, that Rebecca Tushnet. So academically unsound. Such a hack.

[nestra.livejournal.com]

Heh, I like the latest response. "I could totally dismantle OTW with my arguments! But I won't! You will just have to take my word that I totally could if I wanted to!"

[ithiliana.livejournal.com]

I saw your comments in that post, and have peeked at your profile, and heck! I am friending you!

Much better than engaging with total troll that you link to because I so wanted to ask them to cite chapter and verse about what they've read and what makes it "hack" work (I mean, the legal articles alone are about 150 pages long, and I can barely get through them, just being a poor English type). But there's no point.

So, well HAI THERE!

[tzikeh.livejournal.com]

Welcome! I am happy to be friended!

You know, I didn't want to engage. I really didn't. But I just snapped. Purposefully ignorant cowards, shouting falsehoods while hiding behind masks, make me want to punch people through the internet.

I knew going into it that I wasn't going to change her mind. That's not why I engage with these kinds of comments. I engage in the hopes that someone reading the thread will see it, and *think*, and maybe come out the other side with an opinion based in fact.

[papilio-luna.livejournal.com]

I have no fucking clue what is going on with any of this. I'm not a BNF, I don't do anything multi-fandom, fandom politics just exhausts me etc... But I must be monumentally laid-back because I always just assumed that you put something on the internet and it's kind of out there, forever. That's why you use a pseudonym. The very first thing I did when I started writing fic, before I published a word, was to create a separate fandom identity for myself. And you do that because Google exists. I don't see why it matters one whit which archive your fic is archived at—Google still exists. If an academic wants to study Selfcest in Science Fiction Fanfic, well, for a while if you googled "Tencest" my Teaspoon page was the first hit (which is a travesty, actually: should be fid_gin. Having just checked, a post I made to tennant_love is now the #1 hit for that, and my Teaspoon page is #2. So I don't see why any of this matters, like, at all.

But as usual with fandom politics I'm probably missing something. And the reason I'm missing it is that I just don't really care.

[tzikeh.livejournal.com]

But I must be monumentally laid-back because I always just assumed that you put something on the internet and it's kind of out there, forever.

Not only that -- but the AO3 *isn't collecting and archiving anyone's work*. It's there for people to upload their own work *if they want to*.

But as usual with fandom politics I'm probably missing something. And the reason I'm missing it is that I just don't really care.

Yes. This isn't about AO3; it's about the OTW. But as for missing something--stay that way. Stay innocent. Never ever wade into this. You will be a happier person for it.

Sorry. Couldn't help myself.

[ginamak.livejournal.com]

Re: Sorry. Couldn't help myself.

[tzikeh.livejournal.com]

:D I know. I want it on a t-shirt.

I am usually SO GOOD at taking a deep breath and walking away from the OTW stuff. But. I just. No.

[thecomfychair.livejournal.com]

Sidenote, but I occasionally read Rebecca Tushnet's legal blog (and I don't really think hack is an appropiate descriptor there); and somehow I completely overlooked the posts about her involvement with OTW! So thanks for the roundabout heads up, I didn't realize.

[tzikeh.livejournal.com]

NP! Glad to INFORM!

[loz]

I hate dealing with people where I'm spending the majority of my time thinking "you are wrong and you should have a degree in being wrong all the time!" Ugh.

[tzikeh.livejournal.com]

Oh my God that is beautiful - a B.A. in Being Wrong. Or would that be a B.S.?

[kadymae.livejournal.com]

I tried to read that thread, but not even deluge of reason you unleashed could put out that inferno of stupid.

Because, yeah, you totally get a professorship at Georgetown if you've got a weak CV. Totally. Same with chairing a department at a U.

[lapislaz.livejournal.com]

Yeah, you totally get your novels optioned by Peter Jackson if you're a hack.

[klia.livejournal.com]

Ah, so that's the wank that's been alluded to in a few posts on my flist.

I honestly don't understand why people hate on the OTW or AO3. Some of the criticism I've seen is just anti-Americanism (because, clearly, all Americans are horrible, horrible people), but a lot of it seems like academic sour grapes to me, including the sockpuppet you tangled with.

You know, I really didn't need another reason to stay in my fannish bubble. :P

[tzikeh.livejournal.com]

Heh. Yeah, I've been boggling at the OTW hate for years, and I just... snapped. Mostly because of the Teabaggers, frankly. People who froth at the mouth about FALSE INFORMATION make me crazy--especially since they won't change their minds even when confronted with stone-cold fact, and they just spread the poison around.

[southpaw526.livejournal.com]

I'm so out of the loop, I had to Google 'OTW' to find out what it is.

[ithiliana.livejournal.com]

You're not out of the loop: that just shows the stealth Ninja OTW tactics are working.

We're centralizing and speaking for and taking over fandom without you realizing it, bwahahahaha!

(Disclaimer: I am involved with the journal and did a bit of beta work at Fanlore which I want to get back to and am hosting my fics at the Archive).

[lamardeuse.livejournal.com]

OMG, would those people like some cheese with their whine? Jesus, if you don't want to participate in OTW or the AO3, don't fucking participate. This isn't a dictatorship.

[yuletidebachman.livejournal.com]

I've been "avoiding conflict with people I know" because I know them. I don't want to pick a fight with people I know and like just because they're involved with OTW and I am so not a fan: I don't want to sign up for AO3, but I don't want to pick a fight with people who do - which archive you post on is your own damn business, if it works for you, fine. I just want to be able to decide for myself what I want to be involved in, what archives I'm going to post on, and I do honestly think that the centralisation of fandom is a real mistake - what fandom needs is less centralisation, not more. I object to OTW, I object to the fans who flame people who aren't fans of OTW, and I just don't want to be involved in the latest sucky new archive.

I suppose this is a sock-puppet account, but my Yuletide recipient bans anonycommenting on her journal, so I set this one up on purpose to be able to let her know that I had written the story she asked for, even though it wasn't going to be on AO3 (and I've linked to my usual writing journal on IJ at the end of the Author's Note (http://yuletideoverdrive.wordpress.com/2010/01/01/authors-note-on-writing-this-and-otw/)), so you can find out who I am.

[ithiliana.livejournal.com]

I do not want to fight either (I am involved a bit with the journal, in fact will be co-editing the special theme issue on Race, Ethnicity and Fandom with Sarah Gatson), but I would like to ask "how" you see OTW "centralizing fandom" either in intent or in practice.

That is, has the existence of OTW slowed down any other fandom organizations, communities, activities, practices?

Given how many people don't even know what it is, clearly there is no central control of fandoms: lots of people go on their merry way without even knowing about it.

OTW is more officially organized, but it's hardly the only non-profit educational 501 whatever fandom organization (one of the HP groups is, as I recall--and I know of a few fan archives and conference committees who are as well, for multiple reasons).

[thebratqueen.livejournal.com]

You know, every time shit like this happens it makes me want to donate more money to OTW. *makes mental note to do that later when not on the Pre*

[melina123.livejournal.com]

Love my Palm Pre :) Maybe somebody will make us an A03 app for it!

[zephiey.livejournal.com]

To be completely honest, I don't care about OTW or AO3.

What? It's true.

If you want to archive with them then do so, if you don't then don't.

Normalizing fanfiction is impossible since by its very nature fanfic is not normal (normal being a relative term... and not indicating acceptability...if we were accepted then Trekkies wouldn't still be looked on as those weirdos...deal with it and move on)

For fandom, the internet is the new 'toy' (okay, not really but work with me here) for feeding fanfiction addictions.

Prior to the 90's it was e-zines. They've been around for years.

If you write fanfic and post it to the internet then be prepared for it to be out there for a long while. And be prepared for someone to put it in their archive, usually under their favourites and without your permission.

And trust me they don't need your permission to archive it. You, as the writer didn't get permission from the original author/creator to use the characters they developed, so your permission is NOT needed to archive a work that is based on essentially stolen material.


Collecting, and hoarding it has been going on since the first fanfic was written..probably by some fan of Homer's who didn't like that Helen fell for Paris and wanted her to remain with Menelaus, or even earlier when a Sumerian decided to rewrite Gilgamesh so Enkidu didn't die.

Deal with it.

[ithiliana.livejournal.com]

Collecting, and hoarding it has been going on since the first fanfic was written..probably by some fan of Homer's who didn't like that Helen fell for Paris and wanted her to remain with Menelaus, or even earlier when a Sumerian decided to rewrite Gilgamesh so Enkidu didn't die.

I have two responses! First, Earth logic does not apply!

And second: *fangirls you leik whoa* for that last paragraph. SPORFLES.

[kirbyfest.livejournal.com]

Jesus. OWN YOUR OPINIONS. If you don't like OTW or the AO3, say it. Own it. If people dogpile on you, well, that's the shit that happens in fandom.

Whether or not I agree with you, I'll at least respect you if you state your opinions and don't hide behind a sock.

[ficangel.livejournal.com]

Ah. I have--very mixed feelings, let's sum it up that way, on the moving of all past Yuletide stories onto the AO3 servers without giving the authors a chance to opt out, but I can see why the Yuletide mods decided that it was the only viable solution.

However, wow, does that person have a "Holy straw man argument, Batman!" situation happening there.

[liviapenn.livejournal.com]

But authors do have a chance to opt out. They can orphan their stories, they can lock them so that only archive members can read them, or they can delete them.

[shayheyred.livejournal.com]

Actually, the place where I had to stop reading was when I went to one of the complainer's journals and she had a post about how she didn't like the phrase "orphaning" works because it fed into her issues with abandonment, and that's why she hated the AOOO.

O.o

[merricatk.livejournal.com]

That would be me. Please show me where I used the word hate. Or even dislike. Please show me where I said one single word against AOOO.

[heresluck]

I must say that that's certainly one of the *weirder* pieces of anti-OTW vitriol it's been my misfortune to see. Eighteenth-century literature? Really? Because it's so much harder to specialize in Richardson, Fielding, or Austen than, I don't know, Chaucer? 19th c. American literature? I thought disgruntled 18th c. wannabes became Victorianists! To say nothing of the fact that very few of the people involved with the OTW have any connection with academia whatsoever (and honestly, I feel fine about having a law professor on the legal team -- call me crazy!). I mean, yes, the rant is obnoxious and the anonymity is cowardly, and I totally see why you snapped, but as an English professor I confess that my primary reaction is helpless giggling, because honestly, WTF.

[tzikeh.livejournal.com]

Dude, don't you know that being a junior professor of Literature is one of the easiest jobs in the world? So, of course, if you can't even manage that, you have to do something even easier, like, I dunno, create the OTW, AO3, FanLore, etc. I mean, that's a job you can do in your sleep, right?

Pfft. The only reason you don't get it is because you're an English professor, which is only *slightly* more difficult a job than a junior professor of Literature (wtf that is).

[ignazwisdom.livejournal.com]

I love you.

[tzikeh.livejournal.com]

I love you too! Yay!

[elf]

They're not new. (The Teabaggers, I mean.) They're not likely to go away, nor to be more honest about their claims or their identities. And they'll continue to attempt to bring their anti-OTW vitriol into every discussion that seems remotely welcoming to it.

I'm sure it's just a matter of time before someone grumbles about Fanlore missing a couple of refs somewhere, and they'll jump in screeching about the OTW's attempt to own all of fandom everywhere online.

My advice ('cos hey, you *totally* need advice from some random commenter on the internet! that's just what you were waiting for, right? Okay, ignore the word advice. My intent, when I get dragged into these things...) is to point out the flaws in their comments (when you can't just walk away, and I really, *really* get that one), and make very clear that you're *not* conflating those issues with whatever the original post was about.

Because it's always soothing, when you post a rant, when someone agrees with the rant. And annoying when someone slaps your defenders. Even if the agreement was skewed and rantish on its own, and even if the slap was well-deserved.

I don't care how salvidar_as reacts to the thread; it's pretty obvious she's already made up her mind, and is unwilling to support her claims or state her identity. I *do* care how merricatk reacts; I'd like her to like the OTW & AO3. Or at least be less uneasy about the idea of hosting her fic at AO3.

(Um. That's possibly TL;DR. FWIW, I pretty much agree with you; I think I just have different snapping points. I find the "not real academics" concept so laughable I couldn't figure out who was supposed to take it seriously, so it didn't particularly bother me.)

[ithiliana.livejournal.com]

*AHA*

I just figured out what the 'not real English academics': it's BISEXUAL ENGLISH MAJORS (ME!)

[cereta.livejournal.com]

Ah, yes. I do think the "these people are all losers who are trying to make up for being losers by being BNFs" is the absolute funniest argument coming out of the anti-OTW contingent. Beyond that, ya know, lately, I've done a lot of source-considering.

Signed,
Someone who never wanted to be an 18th century lit specialist, thanks

[tzikeh.livejournal.com]

Yeah, some recent source-considering had me splitting my sides with laughter (this was somewhere in regards to Rebecca Tushnet's "so-called" legal knowledge).

[nicolasechs.livejournal.com]

This is my first toe tip into the anti-OTW wank (I've seen little of it on my flist), but WOW, the stupidity is truly mind-boggling. Comparing her/them to the teabaggers is totally right. These people who disdain intelligent, cogent arguments in favor of pathetic, irrational passive-aggressiveness are the reason why America's getting stupider. ARGH.

[mneiai.livejournal.com]

Hallelujah! Or would this be a "sing it, sister!" moment? I'm in complete agreement with this--If people want to criticize something, they should do it with their own account, not be cowardly about it.

[ithiliana.livejournal.com]

AHAHA, due to a comment in the discussion in my journal I read S's profile, and zie's a member of ENGLISH_OBSESSED, a community for English graduate students (and want to be English graduate students):

http://community.livejournal.com/englishobsessed/profile

[keiko-kirin.livejournal.com]

You know what I just love about all of this? The care and consideration for the recipients of those past Yuletide stories the anti-OTW/AO3 authors can't wait to delete. *heavy sarcasm*

I say, speaking as someone who had one of her Yuletide gifts taken away, and know what? Even if it wasn't my favoritist story ever, it still sucks to lose it.

That happened my very first Yuletide year. IIRC, before this, there hadn't been anything in the policy about deletions not being allowed, because it hadn't occurred to anyone that authors would take their gifts away. The reason I think this is because the Yuletide admins had to manually delete the author's stories, and an admin snuck me a copy of my gift in a private e-mail so I could keep it. After that, the policy was updated.

Ah, but. As I am reminded every Yuletide, for most people out there, Yuletide is not about gifts. Unfortunately.

All I can say is: Argh. This is shit. And now I'm off to donate some money to OTW.

[tzikeh.livejournal.com]

You know what I just love about all of this? The care and consideration for the recipients of those past Yuletide stories the anti-OTW/AO3 authors can't wait to delete.

Yeah, that's the point that's made in the Yuletide FAQ where it talks about "once you post to the archive, it stays in the archive" - it's not the mods being arbitrary and grabby, it's that this is a GIFT for someone else, and if you take it away, they no longer have access to it.

Ah, but. As I am reminded every Yuletide, for most people out there, Yuletide is not about gifts. Unfortunately.

Oh, I don't know. There were almost, what, 2,500 participants this year? I think we just hear from the vocal outliers of Team Asshole. My guess is that most participants participate in the intended spirit of the thing.