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tzikehI have stayed out of the OTW insanity since it began. I didn't even know how to begin to talk about it, and I didn't want to wade in while things were shaking out, and I didn't want to read things that were going to make me angry, because I knew it would just cause me impotent rage, since there was nothing I would be able to do.
I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH PEOPLE WHO DON'T LIKE/DON'T WANT TO PARTICIPATE IN THE OTW IF THEIR PHILOSOPHIES ARE IN DIRECT CONFLICT (bolded now for those who fail at reading comprehension and think I'm defending OTW, instead of what I'm actually doing, which is bitching about people who hide their identities so that they can say nasty things about OTW), but I am so done with people who are against the OTW with absolutely no facts to back up their opposition. They are the Teabagging Party when it comes to OTW: frothing at the mouth with blind hatred, but they have absolutely no fucking facts and they just believe whatever their mental, seething leaders say without bothering with critical thought, or fact-finding of their own.
In case anyone reading this thinks that I'm somehow part of the OTW "machine," let me be crystal clear. I have no part in OTW. I'm not on the board, I'm not a beta-tester, I'm not a coder, I'm not part of the PR department, I'm not anything at all when it comes to the project. But I am DONE with this fucking insane bullshit Teabagger-mentality ignorance that has spread through some sections of fandom that are just spoiling for a fight with the OTW, because they've heard from someone who knows someone who said something they didn't like.
I have fucking HAD IT.
Whiny, shitty fucks who bitch about the OTW, but create sock-puppet accounts to do it so no one who knows them will know it was *them*, can shove it up their own asses. Cowards. Bullies. Those of you who have a beef with the OTW and have created sock-puppet accounts just to write about it? Show your faces, you craven pieces of shit. How dare you hide so that nobody who knows you finds out what you think. Afraid of conflict with people you know? Coward. You want to dish it out while not having to own it. Put up or shut up.
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no subject
Date: 2010-01-04 09:41 am (UTC)"deciding not to read the admin comm"
Yeah, banned from LJ, "decided" not to read LJ communities on any kind of regular basis
I don't get the ironic quotes around "decided." Even if you're banned from LJ you can still read public posts, such as the admin announcements on yuletide_admin. So yes, you decided not to read the Yuletide admin comm. That was your choice. And as astolat pointed out to you months ago there are ways to follow the admin announcements without reading LJ, like an RSS feed. You decided not to take advantage of those options either.
And then when you found out that something was happening that you didn't like, you jumped in swinging, cursing at astolat and accusing her of deliberately withholding information.
It's interesting. I've had jobs where a major part of it was Putting Up With People Screaming And Complaining. You know what? Even then I was allowed to hang up when people cursed at me, or made ridiculous impossible demands and refused to accept actual factual answers. Apparently you don't think astolat deserves even the tiny scrap of self-respect that *call center drones* are allowed to have for themselves. You think it was way out of line for her to freeze that thread. You think somehow she owes it to you to just happily volunteer to take whatever whiny, accusatory, aggressive, demanding "anguished howls" you feel like dishing out, for as long as it takes for you to work out all your anger and disappointment about the change.
And you don't think you were acting entitled? *Really?*
no subject
Date: 2010-01-04 09:55 am (UTC)For quoting her rules at Astolat? No.
Look: the reason why a decent person is always polite to call centre employees is because call centre employees are delivering on a script. They aren't allowed to change the script, they didn't write the script, and they have no responsibility for the script: they're giving the answers they're required to give, and the only possible response when it's clear you need answers that go beyond their job description is "I need to speak to your supervisor" (and when that fails, you write a letter to customer services, and if *that* fails, eventually, you write a letter to the CEO... etc.) Even call centre employees who are operating in a less restricted work environment, who don't have a set of scripts to use, are still operating under stringent restrictions and are not in any way responsible for whatever company policy or product which you are making a call about, so holding them to blame for is both rude and stupid.
With regard to Yuletide, Astolat is *not* the equivalent of a call centre drone who is delivering scripted comments she cannot deviate from or take any personal reponsibility for, and attempting to equate her with such a drone is really... not a metaphor that works.
For the rest: I already wrote another comment.
no subject
Date: 2010-01-05 02:37 am (UTC)The reason a decent person is polite to call center employees is not just that they are reading a script; it's because they are human beings, and decent people are not mean to people who have not been mean to them first. Astolat is not a call center drone, no, but she's not a CEO, either; she's a fan putting a ton of work into making Yuletide happen. And she had done nothing wrong; you were unwarrantedly rude, and thus in the wrong, to respond as you did.
You didn't read the yuletide_admin LJ, and therefore missed important information. (A preview of which had already been announced on yuletide_admin in October.) The yuletide website says specifically, "while the Yuletide challenge itself is website-based, the planning and discussion relating to it takes place on Livejournal. . . . All news and official announcements are posted to the Yuletide_Admin community." You chose not to read that community (or follow either its RSS or Atom feed) for -- judging from the timestamps on astolat's post in question and on your response to it -- at least ten days. (And I know perfectly well how much work it is to read a site you otherwise have no reason to visit; I've been doing so ever since you opened your GJ and then IJ, because I wanted to keep up with you.) The appropriate public response to learning that you missed important information is "oh crap; I’m sorry, I missed that, and I'm afraid I need to withdraw my signup," not swearing at one of the people doing the work.
You've also repeated once again the claim that the OTW "exclude[d] non-LJ fans from participation." We've gone round on this one before, and I say again: I do not know how you can say that. Yes, before the OTW's website was set up and fully functional, comments were generally enabled only on the LJ incarnation of the news blog. That was a stopgap measure to make it possible for the people setting up the org to track conversations. Centralizing comments on LJ absolutely had its drawbacks, and it absolutely made it harder (not impossible) for people without an LJ to participate in those discussions. No one has ever denied that; certainly I haven't. But ever since the OTW site went fully live more than a year ago, the org has been completely independent of LJ, though news posts are mirrored to LJ as they are to multiple other locations. No OTW business is conducted on LJ. You don't need an LJ account to read OTW news, or AO3 news, or to use the archive, the wiki, or any other OTW project. You don't need an LJ to volunteer for the org. I cannot imagine what OTW function you think is restricted to those having LJs, and I ask you to either name one, or stop saying one exists. Because it's not true.
(Disclosure: I'm a member of the OTW's Development and Membership Committee, but I'm speaking here only for myself.)
no subject
Date: 2010-01-05 12:13 pm (UTC)FWIW, I think Slashpine's comments here make the most sense of anything I've seen anyone write about this current OTW/AO3 screwup (my own included):
http://tzikeh.livejournal.com/547807.html?thread=6549983#t6549983
no subject
Date: 2010-01-04 09:56 am (UTC)For quoting her rules at Astolat? No.
Look: the reason why a decent person is always polite to call centre employees is because call centre employees are delivering on a script. They aren't allowed to change the script, they didn't write the script, and they have no responsibility for the script: they're giving the answers they're required to give, and the only possible response when it's clear you need answers that go beyond their job description is "I need to speak to your supervisor" (and when that fails, you write a letter to customer services, and if *that* fails, eventually, you write a letter to the CEO... etc.) Even call centre employees who are operating in a less restricted work environment, who don't have a set of scripts to use, are still operating under stringent restrictions and are not in any way responsible for whatever company policy or product which you are making a call about, so holding them to blame for whatever it is both rude and stupid.
With regard to Yuletide, Astolat is *not* the equivalent of a call centre drone who is delivering scripted comments she cannot deviate from or take any personal reponsibility for, and attempting to equate her with such a drone is really... not a metaphor that works.
For the rest: I already wrote another comment.
no subject
Date: 2010-01-04 10:00 am (UTC)I see. So you actually *do* think, that because astolat made a decision you don't agree with, that she owes it to you to put up with your cursing, whining, screaming and aggressive demands, and also somehow to apologize to you for not informing you of things when you clearly stated that you don't read the admin comm anyway.
I just want to be clear: you actually *do* think that astolat should happily be your whipping girl until *you're* tired of punishing her because you don't like the changes she put into effect.
And again, you.... you don't think this is entitled behavior, at all.
Really?
no subject
Date: 2010-01-04 01:37 pm (UTC)I'd say that's pretty much the truth of it.
no subject
Date: 2010-01-04 08:46 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-01-04 09:32 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-01-04 11:36 pm (UTC)I'd say you are getting very confused here. I'd say that because I like you and I'd prefer not to think you are taking part in whatever the HELL
You're on IJ, if you want to come over there and talk about it, feel free, or the bloglet.
http://yuletideoverdrive.wordpress.com
no subject
Date: 2010-01-04 11:46 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-01-04 11:30 pm (UTC)No, I'd say (and I did say) that you're trying to compare calling a customer complaints call centre and speaking to the poor sods who work there, with calling the person who actually made the policy decision you object to.
no subject
Date: 2010-01-05 03:56 am (UTC)And I accepted that distinction, and altered my question accordingly.
Here it is again.
Given that the mods actually made the policy decision that you object to, do they therefore owe it to you to put up with your cursing, your wildly rude accusations, and your berating them as if somehow it's *their* fault you weren't informed? Was it, as you implied earlier in the thread, bad behavior on astolat's part to freeze the thread? Because that implies that you *have a right* to take out your disappointment and anger on her, and that's what I'm trying to figure out. Do you actually think you're entitled to act like that?
I'm not surprised you avoided answering the question. It'll be interesting to see if you side-step it again.